Record Live Podcast

What do you have to do to stay saved_
Intro: [00:00:00] Hi there everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Sunita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church faith and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we'd put into practice. Let's go live.
Jarrod: Here we are again, another week of record Live, , Zita is in the Solomon Islands at the moment. Lucky her, but we should see her again in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, I'm blessed to have my colleague Ashley, helping me to co-host today. Welcome, Ashley.
Ashley: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jarrod: And Ashley, we are joined
by, I think you could say a very special guest. Today we have Dr. Iita [00:01:00] Yankovich. Now I have to get that right. I, I tried my best. How did I go guys?
Edyta: You did very well, Jared. It's pretty good. Yeah. Very, very
Jarrod: well.
We are here with, you, Dr. Aida. You are the.
SPD Associate ministerial Secretary, and yeah, for people that don't know, as I understand it, let me give you this scenario , and you tell me if I'm right. A ministerial secretary will help to minister to the ministers like help support. The pastoral workforce in most conferences and unions.
There's someone in that space. And you guys, yourself, , and your husband, Dr. Darius, are working in that space for the division level, is that, is that ? Correct. Sum it up, yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah.
Edyta: So yeah, it's across the division supporting, advocating for pastors. Yeah.
Jarrod: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So. It's very good that we have you, and I think it's a very important [00:02:00] topic, that , we are talking about today.
We often talk about life, about faith, about church, and about culture. And today's a little bit theological. But that's important 'cause I think we'll find some practical implications for our own personal faith in today's conversation. But just before we get started with that, tell us a little bit about yourself, Aita.
What do you like to do outside of. Work . What do you like to do? Okay,
Edyta: when you're just a leader.
Yeah, so when I'm just aita, when I'm not a wife and when I'm not a mom. And as you can see, Ashley's pretty grown up now. So I've worked myself out of a job there.
But probably , the two things that I love the most are walking and gardening 'cause they're both outside in, in the outdoors. I just love the outdoors, love green space. And yeah, they're probably the two things. And I also love to read. That's probably , my next best thing in the world. So if I've got those three things, then [00:03:00] aside from the people in my life, then I'm happy.
Ashley: you wrote an article, I believe it was for Adventist World, , earlier this year I did called Holiness and God's Sanctifying Grace. So I guess we're gonna touch on that topic a little bit today. Our big question is what do you have to do to stay saved and. I guess I just want to ask . Why are we talking about this topic?
Why do you think that it's important?
Edyta: Why do I think it's important?
Well, let me tell you how I came to write the article. So my husband, Darius, was asked by Adventist World to write, , an article on justification. And he wrote the article and he gave it to me to read and I read it and I said, that's great, but we now need an article on sanctification.
And Darius said, well, you're the best person to write that. And so, , we chatted with, , John Peckham, who was the Adventist world,, editor at the [00:04:00] time. And he said, yeah, by all means. And so then they printed them back to back because justification, sanctification like two sides of the same coin maybe.
, But also quite different. Yeah. So well, very important.
Jarrod: Yeah.
And as we are getting into this conversation, Aita, I wonder if you could define those terms for us because they're terms we may have heard in a church context thrown around, but they're not terms we use in our everyday lives. Very often. Yeah.
I don't hear people walking around saying, , I just woke up this morning. I got justification in my life, you know? , And then I went to the bank, you know, it's, it's not an everyday sort of phrase. No. If you could give us a quick working definition, because I believe we're gonna revolve around these topics a little bit in today's conversation.
Sure, yeah. It will help us to have a basis of understanding.
Edyta: Yeah. So the way that I like to think of it is that justification [00:05:00] is what Jesus did for us on the cross. , He justified us, which means he made us, just made us righteous, made us righteous with God. So that's justification and that's a gift from God.
Sanctification is also by grace. So there's justifying grace and there's sanctifying grace. So sanctification is our journey towards becoming more like Jesus as we follow him. So once we accept Jesus into our lives. We are justified by his grace and then by his sanctifying grace, we continue to grow and to become more like him because when we truly understand his grace, we are moved by that.
And when we see the beauty of Jesus, we are moved by that and we wanna become more like him. And so , that's the way I think of it. Justification is being made right with God. [00:06:00] Sanctification is growing in Christ's likeness, which is a lifelong journey. And, , I think it's really important that we understand the difference, , and there's a tension between them, but I think it's really important because that we understand, because when we have a distorted understanding of how we are saved, then faith is not good news and it's meant to be good news.
Ashley: , In your article, you used the word holy. Yeah. , I think you quoted that Bible verse. , Be holy, as your heavenly Father is. Holy. So what does, what does that mean? Does that mean being perfect? , Trying to be perfect like God is perfect.
Edyta: , So I, I believe God made us holy , when he first created us, and that was his intent for us to be holy 'cause we were created in his image.
, That's Genesis one and two. By then in Genesis three, sin happened. Sin came into the world, and as a result [00:07:00] of that, God's image in us was broken. And it , wasn't completely like destroyed, but it was, it's broken, kind of like cracked. And, , when we are made right with God, when we are justified and when we, , choose to follow it, follow him.
, Holiness is a part of our lives because God's desire is that we are restored. To what his intent for us was, , a restoration of his image in us. Now, it's not perfection. We, we are not going to be perfect, not this side of the kingdom. I've lived a long time now and I recognize that, you know, , it's not gonna be perfect anytime soon that my, my life.
But, . That's God's , desire for us, that we walk in his ways and we become more like him. That's how I understand holiness.
Jarrod: Yeah. Now, in, in the beginning of your article and that article we did [00:08:00] repost on the record website and in the comments,, there's a link to it, if you're keen to read more, but the opening scenario that you painted was that you yourself didn't necessarily understand this.
Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your introduction to this topic , and how your own view changed over time?
Edyta: Sure. Yeah, so I mean, I grew up in faith. Church, home and school. , And my early discipleship, I would say, , when I think back to childhood, the two things that were really significant for me were Uncle Arthur's bedtime stories and Children's Sabbath school.
And so from both of those things, , obedience was something that was really important, , for, for a child, you know. . You obey Jesus. That's kind of , , the goal of why these stories were being told to us, and so somehow I came away with this idea that salvation was believing in God plus being good.
They were like [00:09:00] foundational pillars of, , what it meant to be a Christian. But I grew up also afraid of the judgment, because I, I kind of knew from somewhere through these stories that there would be a reckoning of my good and bad deeds. And if my good deeds outweighed my bad ones, this was my, , five, 10-year-old theology.
If my good deeds outweighed my bad ones, then. I was in, I was good. But then, , I attended Adventist High School and I had high school Bible classes. And so in Bible classes I learned that salvation was by grace. Jesus died for me. And so I'm saved by grace. So I couldn't quite fit where being good fit into that picture.
And, I really put it on the shelf , for a number of years because I felt like it was just in the too hard basket and I wasn't gonna think about it anymore. But then. I married a pastor and we went to seminary and so I [00:10:00] decided, well this was a good time to try to learn some more about this thing I'd put, you know, on the shelf.
And so I took salvation class twice with two different professors. 'cause I really wanted to understand, . I really, I really struggled because I didn't come to a better understanding at all. I felt like I was more confused after taking those two classes. And, , yeah, so once again, I was. Back to square one.
But all along I also had this kind of underlying sense of, I'm trying really hard to be good. I was a good girl. I married a pastor, I'm a good wife. , And so I found it hard to believe that anything that I'd done was really so bad that someone had to die for me. So, you know, that was all a bit challenging.
But then when I came, became a parent, I think that's when it really sunk in because, , first of all, Kate, our older daughter, , and then Ashley, when they were born, [00:11:00] that's when I really saw my sinfulness, which really came to me. I, I came to see it as a lack of the fruit of the spirit in my life.
, You know, the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control. , That's when I realized these things, you know, I really need to grow in these things. And it wasn't until really I understood my own sinfulness that I realized I couldn't save myself and.
That's when I realized that grace was actually good news because I finally understood grace. And truly, my life has never been the same again. My journey with Jesus has never been the same again. Because before that I was trying to save myself, and since that experience, I realized, I'm saved by grace.
Yeah. So, but, but then,, where does sanctification come in? [00:12:00] And so, , for me, sanctification, , I, I love the word, the verse in Philippians two 13, which is for, it is God who works in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. And so sanctification is also by grace. Yeah. ,
Ashley: I wanted to read a little bit of your article, just a short little quote.
Yeah. And then ask you a question , you wrote this, many Christians believe that their effort requires trying to be more Christ-like, and so they work hard at trying to be more loving, kind, unselfish, et cetera. But this approach focuses on our own attitudes and actions, often leading to failure and guilt.
In contrast with trying scripture encourages us to train for godliness. And so, you know, you've told us a bit of your own journey and how you came to understand grace, but then, , there's still this aspect of. Trying versus [00:13:00] training. , What's the difference between those two? Just could you unpack that a little?
Edyta: Yeah. So we all know what it feels like to try to be good and fail, right? And the Apostle Paul, , said that so well when he said, , the good that I would, I do not, and the evil that I would not, that I do. So that's trying and training , in my experience is when we spend time with God. When we spend time in his presence, we, when we learn to enjoy God, we are learning what he's like.
And as we learn what he's like, we see his beauty. And as we see his beauty, we go, oh wow. That's what I wanna be like. And . Eh, Jesus tells us, I'm the vine, you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much, much fruit. And that's what I see as . , Training with trying the emphasis is on the outcome, on being good, [00:14:00] whereas with training, the emphasis is on the journey on progress.
And I really understood this when I was teaching one of my daughters to drive. Now can I tell which daughter? Yeah, so it wasn't Ashley. So, , Ashley learned to drive really easily and quickly. Caitlin, who's super brilliant, struggled to learn to drive and she'd never struggled to learn anything, and so she found it really frustrating, and so she'd get in the car.
And she'd say, okay, I'm gonna drive from here to the next town. We were living in the US at the time to the next town without making a mistake. And of course, , she would make a mistake and she'd get to the other end and she'd be like, oh, , I did this wrong and this wrong and this wrong.
And she'd be really. Discouraged. And so then I decided I was gonna try to have her think about this trying versus training, , concept with regards to [00:15:00] driving. And so I said to her, well, think of it as you're training. You're not trying to make no mistakes, but you're training. So as you drive, you're learning.
You are learning how to do this and because you're learning how to do this, you're gonna make mistakes and that's okay because each time that you train, you're gonna get that little bit better. And it really made the world of difference for her. She wasn't so discouraged with her mistakes and , it was like a shift in perspective.
And that's how I think the differences in. With regards to our walk with God and our, , character growth. If we can focus on training, which is being with God, learning about him and learning from him, seeing how beautiful and good he is, we just wanna be like that. And so do you see the [00:16:00] difference, the emphasis is the journey rather than the end goal?
.
Jarrod: , But training as we all know, can still be painful, I guess. Yeah. The muscle soreness and the, if we think of it physic physically training, I guess just on that point. , What does that look like? Because I feel like we all grow up in church or we come into the church and we hear people talk about relationship with God.
We hear people talk about spending time as you have learning from God, learning for God. Yeah, I get that. I love that. But. What does it actually look like? Because it can often feel very abstract. It feels like just, again, a bit theoretical. God does this, he saves you, and it should all just happen. The Holy Spirit should.
Work with you. Yeah. How do we train but then without making it works, like slipping back into that, trying what does Yeah. 'cause often you get the, read your bible more, pray more. And so we get, I have to do this much devotional a day and I have to do these five [00:17:00] things every day. , And we can become overwhelmed by the list of to-do things, which I think.
Is what you're talking about the trying again, like we slip back into that? Yeah, yeah. What does training look like when it's done healthfully and well?
Edyta: Well, I think there are lots of different ways, , to be with God. , And often we think, you've gotta read two chapters of the Bible every day, , and you've gotta spend X amount of, time praying.
But, , in my experience. I don't know what you are like, but in my experience, , praying can actually be really hard. , Because, , I decide, okay, I'm going to pray now, and I start to talk to God, and then I find , my mind wandering, and then I feel really bad. It's like I was supposed to be talking to God and here I am thinking about my grocery shopping, you know?
. I think that that's okay because God created our minds and he knows that our minds wander. And so, , I think like for me, what's been [00:18:00] really helpful is practicing being aware of God in my life and looking for little God moments in my life. And yes, now that both of our girls are grown up, , my husband and I have morning devotional time in the morning.
There's sometimes an hour, sometimes two hours even, and it's become the highlight of our day. We love it. But when our children were young, my devotional life consisted of a Bible verse taped to , the bathroom, , mirror so that I could remind myself,, God is with me in this, in the chaos of my day.
And so like. Across the course of our lives, I think it changes, but I think the biggest thing is cultivating that awareness that God is with us. And, you know, , with the whole thing of growing in Christ's likeness, the, the two things that I like to think of as, , dependence and responsibility or accountability.[00:19:00]
So the dependence on God is like, if I know I'm going into a situation that's really challenging. Reminding myself that God is with me. If I'm going into, a board meeting or a conversation with somebody who is really difficult, reminding myself that God is with me, yeah, pray about it at the beginning of the day if you know this is coming up.
But then also remind yourself as you're walking in that God is with you. And then the accountability or the responsibility part of it , in my experience has been like, you know, if I am, if I know that this is gonna be difficult, having, a little bit of an action plan for, if it goes pear shaped, I'm just gonna, , excuse myself and say I have to go to the bathroom or.
Get myself a drink or whatever. So that's like,, Ellen White talks about cooperating with God, , in [00:20:00] our growth in Christ's likeness. And, that's how it's been for me, that cooperating with God is praying, reminding myself that he's with me, and then having a bit of an action plan for how I'm gonna manage this difficult thing.
, Does that answer your question, Jared? I don't really remember where you started, but that's kind of where I've landed
Jarrod: sort of, I like the practical nature of, , what you've suggested, I guess. , Yeah, it is a challenge for us, you know, to,, to do. Or to be in God's presence rather than to be doing things for God.
For God. Yeah.
Edyta: Yeah. I've experienced, experienced that in my
Jarrod: life, and I'm sure many people that are watching or listening to this at some point have experienced that, like that conundrum, like we get so busy trying to do instead of. , Being, being with God and what that looks like. Yes. Yeah.
Edyta: Yes. Yeah. , And that was actually something I really struggled with also, [00:21:00] like, you know, being told in high school, , I'm supposed to have a relationship with God, well.
You know, I struggle with my human relationships, let alone a relationship with somebody who's invisible. You know? How do you do that? And , I read years ago, I don't remember where it was, but I read years ago that in the same way that we have a relationship with a person, you have a relationship with God, by spending time and the way that we can spend time with God, I mean, God.
It looks like Jesus, right? I just got a, I just got a book in the mail this week called God Looks Like Jesus. I'm really looking forward to reading it, but you know, our best picture of God is Jesus. So to spend time with God, spend time with Jesus in the Gospels, and for me, the thing that was, it was a game changer, is reading only really short passages.
Not really long passages, but reading a [00:22:00] short passage, like let's say a narrative passage, just a short story, and then imagining myself as part of the story. And that was a real game changer for me because it, it was like I, I felt like I experienced Jesus, like. A heart level, not just at a head level, but at a heart level.
, I remember the first time I did that, I was reading the story of, . Jesus stepping into the boat, you know how , the disciples were distressed 'cause the storm had come up and they were all by themselves. And then Jesus stepped into the boat , , and it was a turbulent time in my life. I was, , uh, mom with kids and I was trying to decide, , what my future was gonna look like, , as far as a study program.
And it literally felt like. Jesus stepped into my life with me, and I, it's like I experienced this sense of Jesus is here with me, he's with me in this, , [00:23:00] difficult decision I have to make. Just like he stepped into the boat with his disciples, he stepped into my life with me. And yeah, , that was, .
Just a real game changer for me for how to read the Bible. Short little passages. , Imagine yourself as part of the story. Put yourself into the story. Imagine what it would be like to be there with Jesus. Have him look at you, touch you, , you know, what would the smells be like? All of that. And I know that , in a busy life.
It's hard to make the time for that. , I know that for me that when I've made the time, my, my day goes better, but sometimes when I don't make the time, just one little verse , like in the old days, one little verse taped to the bathroom. Yeah.
Ashley: I really like that analogy. It's, I guess the whole difference of, or the difference between doing things for God, feeling like you have to do things and just.
[00:24:00] Being with God. , I feel like that whole idea of having to do things for God, , it connects to that stress that I feel like everyone experiences it one point or another, like, am I still saved? I know I accepted Jesus. You know, I'm justified through grace, but. What do I have to do to keep it? And this is common Christian Perce, , perception that, , once saved, always saved , is that true?
And if not, how can we have that assurance that we are saved?
Edyta: So once saved, always saved is a predestinating theology, right? The God predestined some people for salvation and some people not for salvation. , And so, . As Adventists, , we've never embraced that kind of theology, , because in the predestine theology, you cannot lose your salvation.
God predestined you and you know, you're just, you're in, , but as Adventists, we believe that God gives us the freedom to choose him. [00:25:00] And I believe our assurance of salvation comes from putting out our hand for God's justifying grace. And living a life of faith, and we are gonna fall, , we are gonna mess up, we are gonna make mistakes.
But just like with my husband, I, you know, I'm married to him. I'm in a relationship with him. I'm gonna, I mess up sometimes, I heard him, sometimes I say things that I later regret, but does that mean my relationship with him is, , broken? No. We've been married for something like 35 years and I continue to be in relationship with him even though I disappoint him.
And I think it's the same with God. You know, we might ignore him for a little while, but he's still. You know, somebody, we relate to some, somebody who's important to us. I, I might, , not reach out to a friend for a little while, but doesn't mean that that person's not my friend. That's the way I [00:26:00] think of it , with God, and as long as I'm putting out my hands for his grace.
Okay. Then I think that we can live with assurance, with peace and freedom. And I think that's what faith is meant to be. It's meant to be good news and I think often , what we share with people isn't good news. It's just a different kind of bondage.
Jarrod: Hmm. I really like that marriage picture, Aita, and I don't think I've ever heard that sort of expressed that way, but it really gives us tools to understand this idea.
'cause you can end a marriage. You can abandon a marriage. Yeah. You can walk away and just like, so we don't believe that salvation is once saved, always saved, but it's like you're in a relationship and the marriage isn't annulled just because you mess up or have a fight or make a mistake, you know, it's stay, it maintains through.
So that has been a really helpful picture for me to just, to just get my head around. , Yeah. Yeah. We've [00:27:00] fast.
Edyta: That's a Darius picture. He, oh good. He speaks on this all the time. 'cause he says, all through scripture, God is presented as a lover and as a bride groom. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But also as a parent, same thing with your children.
Yes. You know, you don't stop loving them 'cause they made a mess. You might be crossed. Right. Exactly. But you know, you're still in a relationship with them.
Jarrod: Mm, no, I think it's really beautiful. , We're fast running out of time, unfortunately. It is a big topic and yeah. , I've probably got more questions here, like, , why something so foundational is sometimes so hard to understand or to accept.
But I'm gonna, I'm gonna. Head us towards the end. We always like to get practical on record live. That's where we always wind up. So people watching, people listening to this, okay, we've had a fairly theological conversation today. What should I be doing this week to start living more like this is a reality in my life.
. What can I get out of this? What can you leave with us to point us in a good [00:28:00] direction as we go from this conversation? And we go about our day, we go about our week. What can we do to be with God more than doing everything for God?
Edyta: I would say, , choose one short passage from the Gospels where you see how Jesus related to people and learn from him.
Mm, because that to me has been just so important to see the way that God treated people, people who were the, you know, bottom of the heap, bottom of the hierarchy. And that to me is what makes me love Jesus. And , if you can learn that Jesus loves you. Then you can love him back. And then you can see what he's like and you wanna be like that.
So it really comes back to Jesus loves me. This I know for the Bible tells me so [00:29:00] yeah.
Jarrod: , So much simple wisdom in, a kid song that we are all familiar with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hey, a deter, thank you so much for sharing some of that. I think that feels attainable. We can all go away from this conversation and try that, sit down with a short Bible passage and mm-hmm.
And really what you're saying is sit with your savior and spend some time Yes. Getting to know him.
Edyta: Yes. A a, and learn from him. .
Jarrod: What a beautiful idea., Let's do that this week. Record live, family. Let's try. Thank you Edyta for joining us. Thank you, Ashley, for bravely stepping into Zanita's seat.
We really appreciate , both of you joining us, but until next time on record live, God bless.
Edyta: Thank you.