Record Live Podcast

Third culture kids_ where mission and identity clash
Intro: [00:00:00] Hi there, everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Zanita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church, faith, and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus, faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we put into practice. Let's go live.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And we're back again for another week of Record Live and Zenita, it feels like deja vu, but we say this every week. It's one of our favorite parts of the week to have this conversation with each other. And when we get a special guest, it's even more special.
Zanita Fletcher: Totally. It's always good fun.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Now, we do have a special guest today.
Jarrod Stackelroth: She's, come on for the first time on Record Live. So, welcome, Ashley. It's great to have you. , now for having [00:01:00] me. No worries. Ashley has started with Adventist Record. , some of you might have read or have seen Danelle's name in the masthead. Danelle. Went on maternity leave at the very start of this year, and Ashley has come in to fill the role that Danelle, , held.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And so, yeah, it's been really great to have Ashley on the team. She's written a couple of very interesting articles. There's one that's just recently come out about. , supporting PKs pastors kids. So that's, I mean, there's a lot to talk about there, but today we're going to, , just get to know Ashley a little bit more and to, I guess, think about this concept of third culture kids.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Now, some of our audience might not be familiar with what that is. And so we'll get Ashley in a moment to give us a bit of her background where she's. How, , being a third culture kid fed into her experience, but we've called, , today's, , episode third culture kids where mission [00:02:00] and identity clash. And, you know, as Christians, we often, want our identity to be founded in Christ.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And we also want to be doing mission. And yet many times, there are unexpected fallouts of mission work. There are unexpected things that happen. And so we're going to reflect on some of those big themes and big ideas today in the next half hour. But yeah, as I said, Ashley, it's great to have you.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Thank you for being willing to share your experience with us today. And maybe if we can just start with some of your background and what is a third culture kid or. Or how you define a third culture kid and how you fit that definition. What does your background look like in that space?
Ashley Jankiewicz: Yeah. So a third culture kid is someone who grows up in a culture that is different to their parents culture.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And it's called a third culture kid because this, , kid kind of stands between their parents culture and the new culture and they kind of [00:03:00] create. their own. And so that's the third. And yeah, for me personally, I kind of grew up across four different cultures, living in three different countries. when I was little, I lived in, in Australia and then in Fiji.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And then I spent quite a few years in the United States before moving back to Australia when I was 18. And I have Polish Australian parents, so I also kind of have that Polish background. And we've grown up speaking some Polish, , in our house. So, yeah, so just those four different cultures, yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: I, I have friends who have definitely had Like the two different sides where they've had a family from this country and a family from this country, or maybe it hasn't been a country as such, but it's been like, , my mom believes this and my dad believes this.
Zanita Fletcher: And it's this kind of like tug of war or like this journey of like, Oh, what do I do? And, but you've got [00:04:00] another step there. You've got four different countries, but was there a period in your life? I know you shared some stories in your article, but. Was there a period in your life where you realised, oh hang on, this isn't normal or this isn't how everyone else lives?
Ashley Jankiewicz: Yeah, I think it was when I left Fiji. I was seven years old. And before then, life had just kind of been normal. , I guess as a little kid you don't really think about these things, you know. The most important thing in your life are your parents and, you don't think about the outside world as such.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And for me, it was just really normal, uh, my life. And then when we left, suddenly, , my sister and I remember we had a lot of conversations about, , what was happening, where were we moving now? And yeah, so I think, that's kind of when it started.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Do you think, Ashley, there's a difference between many people are. Children of immigrants. You've described how your parents were Polish Australian. So you had some background or some speaking another language [00:05:00] at home. And yet, , it seems to me that a third culture kid in, in terms of the definition is a little different to say a second generation Australian.
Jarrod Stackelroth: So someone might move here and they've got some culture at home. That's different to the culture around them, but. They still, there's, there's definitely disconnect there. , but it seems like a third culture kid is almost like the parents and the dominant culture that they've grown up in is then transplanted to a whole different culture.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And yet they still have roots back. So they still define themselves as from where they've come from. , it's a bit, it's a bit more complex or am I, am I wrong? Is it the same thing? No,
Ashley Jankiewicz: you're not wrong. It's not quite the same thing. So there's this umbrella term of a cross cultural kid and underneath.
Ashley Jankiewicz: Both an immigrant kid and a third culture kid kind of both fit under that cross cultural. So , it is slightly different, but I think, you know, both come with challenges.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Can you [00:06:00] just tell us some of those challenges? I guess, , you've told us that you had a lot of different experiences and different cultures that you had to adjust to every time you moved, but what does that do?
Jarrod Stackelroth: As a young person, what does that do as a child trying to find your way and to navigate the differences, all the differences around you?
Ashley Jankiewicz: Yeah, well, I spent a lot of my life, feeling like I didn't quite belong. Wherever I was, I always felt like I was from somewhere else. So in America, I felt like I was from Australia.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And then, , moving back to Australia, I felt like I was from America and I'm always You know, from somewhere else. And that kind of contributes to a lot of feelings of not belonging. And I also feel like a lot of my life has felt very temporary. , everywhere I have lived, I have known that it is not forever.
Ashley Jankiewicz: I have known that I'm going to move again. And I think for the first time in my life, , I don't [00:07:00] actually I don't know if I'm going to move to another country now and it's just, it's kind of strange and I still feel kind of stuck in that. Is it still temporary? Is it, is it not? So yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: True. You wrote in your article along the same lines, you wrote, Fiji was my third country and the first home I remembered.
Zanita Fletcher: Sydney was big and strange, but we weren't staying and we felt for sure that America would be at home. So it's , kind of what you're saying, like you were always looking for this place to, to be. To settle and to call home and to find that sense of, maybe not security, but that place that you would remain.
Zanita Fletcher: And I guess I'm curious if you've found any. Resolve in that. Like I know that you said it's the first time that you don't see yourself going anywhere or you don't know where you're going to go next. But, do you feel like you're home in Sydney or do you feel like you found that home in something else or what's happened with that, I guess that experience?
Ashley Jankiewicz: Well, I don't, I don't know if I fully found it, to be honest, I've moved to Sydney like two months ago, [00:08:00] so I don't think I can fully call it home, but, I think I feel like Australia. Is home at this point in that it's taken a long time to get to that point. And I think it also depends on where my family is and the majority of my family is in Australia.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And I feel like my world, I guess, lines up most with what people hear, how they see the world. And so. I feel like I have found where I fit most, but I don't think I'm ever going to feel like I belong completely, like 100%, like someone who was born and raised in Australia, if that makes sense.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I think on some level we. We can all relate to that a little bit. Like for myself, some, I have seasons of feeling very lonely or isolated. [00:09:00] We've talked about this on the show before Zenita. , I think as an adult, you get into a period where you have maybe young kids. And so you can't hang out with your.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Friends who don't have kids again, like it's, it's harder to make social dates and things. So you're not seeing as many people. And so you can get into these seasons of, I guess, that same kind of disconnect. Like, where do I fit? Who are my people? Where is my tribe? Like, , and so I think on many levels, people can relate, but what.
Jarrod Stackelroth: What's the mental sort of state or the emotional sort of state when you, you mentioned that it always felt temporary, what does that mean for friendships? And for, , I guess life plans when you're making life plans. Is it harder to do that? Because you think, oh, it's going to be ripped away. I'm going to have to move schools again.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Or so I can't really. Maybe give myself fully to these relationships. Like, is there a sense of that? [00:10:00]
Ashley Jankiewicz: Well, at this point, I don't really make plans for my life, but I think I was lucky because I had a lot of stability through my teen years., , when we lived in the States, , we moved in there when I was seven.
Ashley Jankiewicz: We were only supposed to be there for like four or five years. And so I do remember it being quite difficult. I had made a group of friends and. We really struggled together with the idea, Oh, I'm leaving, you know, I'm moving. And then we didn't end up moving. We ended up staying until I was 18. And so I had stability for a time, but I always knew we were going back.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And so that, that did affect it to some degree. And I always knew that I was probably going to go to university in Australia, that I wasn't going to stay, , in the States. And I feel like there are other TCKs, , who have it worse [00:11:00] because, they do move every two years and they do have to keep moving schools.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And I was lucky that I did get to go to the same school. , but yeah,
Zanita Fletcher: I think it's interesting cause, , , when we were toying with what to title this article, Jared mentioned that we've talked a lot about identity and belonging. And I think Those two words are kind of buzzwords today. Like we, we do talk about them a lot and culture is talking about them a lot. , and it's probably because, , it's something that people have struggled with throughout, um, all mankind.
Zanita Fletcher: But I think there's probably a lot more at play right now because maybe previous cultures were a lot more communal. Like you mentioned that you lived in Fiji and that was like the first place you felt like. that home and that belonging. But these days, people are much more like individualistic. And so I think it's probably a lot more common for people to feel that sense of, , like they don't belong somewhere or they can't find that, or they can't find that like perfect friendship or that perfect community that they're, they're looking for.
Zanita Fletcher: , Did you experience that kind of differently in different [00:12:00] cultures? Like, did you feel more of a sense of that in Fiji because they probably weren't more communal or was it just kind of everywhere you went, it was the same kind of absence of home?
Ashley Jankiewicz: Well, I think it was less dependent on the culture itself and more dependent on my age, if I'm being honest.
Ashley Jankiewicz: , I don't think I really noticed that, , sense of community in Fiji as such. I was quite young. I do remember it quite well, but I think my world revolved around , my parents and my family, , I think America is a bit more individualistic than, say, Poland or even Australia might be.
Ashley Jankiewicz: , even, I know my parents struggled in America trying to, you know, reach out to people and create a sense of community and just really struggling with that. And it also didn't help that where we lived in America, it was kind of a very specific community. It was very transient. So [00:13:00] people were coming and going constantly from all over the world.
Ashley Jankiewicz: It wasn't like this set community where everyone was born and raised in one place. And . Yeah, I think that, that had an effect.
Jarrod Stackelroth: You came back to Australia, you did your university years, and then you took off to Poland.
Ashley Jankiewicz: Yes, I
Jarrod Stackelroth: did. You did a gap, like a gap year, or you were going to go teach English there and different things there, was that part of finding your identity, like, were you searching for something there, were you trying to connect with your roots, what, tell us a little bit about that experience.
Ashley Jankiewicz: Yeah, so, as I said, I've grown up feeling at least a little bit Polish, , speaking some Polish at home, having Polish parents, Polish grandparents, and that was always the thing that stayed the same, you know? , it was the one place I hadn't lived, but it was my cultural background, I guess you could say, and my grandparents would [00:14:00] always say things like, Oh, you're Polish.
Ashley Jankiewicz: You're,, you're pure Polish blood. And I decided when I was about 12 that I was going to go for a year to Poland to do something. I didn't know exactly what, , I had cousins who had done it. I'd heard of other people,, going away for a year. And I was like, I'll go to Poland and I'll, I'll find myself.
Ashley Jankiewicz: I'll find the country that You know, it's really my country and it didn't quite go as planned. I think my time in Poland, I felt the least Polish that I have ever felt in my life. And that was kind of confronting at first, , to show up and then realize that nobody there actually considered me Polish.
Ashley Jankiewicz: I was very Australian over there. That kind of goes back to the, wherever I am, I, feel like I'm from somewhere else. And Yeah, being in Poland made me think a lot [00:15:00] about this topic about,, identity and I feel like it helped me make my peace with a lot of it and Yeah, just some of the things that I learned and I think coming back I feel a lot more settled being in Australia than before.
Ashley Jankiewicz: It's like I realised that I was happy in Australia, that I was happy for Australia to be my home. Can
Zanita Fletcher: you , flesh that out a little bit more,, was there like an epiphany you had, like other than you realised Australia was your home? Or what was your thought process going on while you were in Poland that kind of shifted?
Zanita Fletcher: Shifted that mindset for you. I
Ashley Jankiewicz: think it was a very slow process. I think it took the whole year, to be honest. And, I had to deal with a lot of questions. People in Poland were constantly asking me, Why I was there and they weren't just satisfied with, Oh, I'm teaching English for [00:16:00] the year. , they wanted to know , why I had chosen to come to Poland.
Ashley Jankiewicz: Why had I come back to the country where my family had left? Why would I want to leave Australia to go to Poland? And at first I always tried to explain and I felt like nobody quite. I feel like a lot of people didn't quite understand my need to go back and, well not even go back, go to where my family's from and see for myself if it would mean anything for me.
Ashley Jankiewicz: But I learned over the year that it didn't,
Ashley Jankiewicz: it, it wasn't about , the country itself, but it was more about, The people themselves. And I think that was part of it that I learned I could find belonging with specific groups of people. And I think it also sunk [00:17:00] home that I could find belonging and identity in God, that it didn't matter that I was, that I didn't find complete belonging on earth because I would one day.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Yeah. The world is not my home sort of idea. T. S. Lewis writes in the last battle about Aslan's country and going further up and further in, and when they get there, it's very much a reflection of what they'd known before the country, the land that they'd known before. But. Magnified, like,
Ashley Jankiewicz: more
Jarrod Stackelroth: filled with meaning, more wonderfully smelling, more flavorful, more bigger and better, , obviously it was a, , allegorical representation of heaven , and God's, I guess, plan for us, God's picture for us.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , and so what you're describing sort of sounds a little bit like. Well, that comes to mind when you're describing that, [00:18:00] God's intention for us is to have these fuller lives. And when we then look back on some of our, our disconnect with others, our dislocation from place and people and country and culture, it's, because those things are pale limitations in some sense of what God had in store for us and wants us to eventually have when he restores all things.
Jarrod Stackelroth: But, yeah, we. In a broken world. And so not everything works perfectly, I suppose. And, yeah, thank you for sharing, I guess, some of that journey for you. Cause it can be really an existential crisis. It could really make you question your identity. And yet you seem to have found that answer. And I just want to push back, you know, people could be watching this or listening to this and thinking, well, that's nice, but it's sort of sweet.
Jarrod Stackelroth: By and by pie in the sky sort of stuff. It's not real, like it's a cliched answer. It's a Christian answer, but I'm sensing as you're sharing with us, there's a [00:19:00] real wrestle in that journey that it took you, as you said, it took you all that year. But in some senses, it's taken your whole life to realize that your identity.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Needs to be based in God rather than achievements or place or culture or people , and can you just flesh that out a little bit? We're Christians, obviously we're talking about church and culture a lot on , this podcast, what should our identity look like? You think after what you've discovered with your year in Poland and reflecting on some of this.
Jarrod Stackelroth: This dislocation in your own life, like what should our identity, how should we construct our identities? What should that be based on? What should it look like?
Ashley Jankiewicz: I think it comes with a realization first of, you know, maybe that cliche answer of realizing that Earth is not our forever home and we do have something, , to look forward to. [00:20:00] Specifically, well there are a lot of verses in the Bible that have helped me along the way. There's one in Proverbs, and maybe I take it a little bit out of context, but it's, the righteous will never be uprooted.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And I think in this whole idea of third culture kids, we often talk about being uprooted and having roots and everything. And it's understanding that your roots don't necessarily have to be uprooted. or they don't even necessarily have to be in other people, but your roots can be in something greater.
Zanita Fletcher: I like that. . But I guess, , in talking about like knowing that you have a eternal home and knowing that You know, our roots can be in Jesus. Has that been, because, , sometimes we can say this stuff and we act differently, or we still searching for things.
Zanita Fletcher: Has that been enough for you? Or , Has it been a bit of a mind game on top of that? Or have [00:21:00] there been like things you've actually had to do to believe that? Do you know what I mean?
Ashley Jankiewicz: Yeah. I mean, well, it hasn't been fully enough. Like I, I feel like it's a large aspect of it, but it's.
Ashley Jankiewicz: It's not enough just to say my identity is in Jesus, nothing else matters, you know I think , we were created to have connections. Even Adam was created and then God created someone else so that he wouldn't be lonely. And even Like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, belonging, I think is in the middle, right after food and water and safety.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And then you have belonging. So we were created for connection. We were created to be able to feel like we belong. And, , unfortunately, a lot of people don't feel like they belong for various reasons, not just. Being a third culture [00:22:00] kid. And so there is that, constant clash between trying to keep your eyes on what, what you believe that, you know, you are rooted in Jesus and that's enough and your desire to,, fit in and have your life make sense.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Are there any benefits of being a third culture kid? Like we talk a lot about some of the difficulties and some of the, you know, existential wrestling and that's, that's important. Like people are dealing with that and they have to process that for their faith and their lives to, to make meaning, find meaning in that.
Jarrod Stackelroth: But do you think it's equipped you in any ways better to deal with certain situations or giving you a strength of character in some sense, or even a sense of the mission? , we talked about mission and identity, sometimes clashing because our parents or our grandparents commit to the service to sacrifice for the mission of the church.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And then. The kids [00:23:00] sometimes cop the fallout from that, but what are some of the benefits of, your experience, your upbringing?
Ashley Jankiewicz: Yeah, I definitely think there are benefits and I think it's given me a lot of resilience. I think, I don't know if I would have been able to go away for a year overseas if I had never moved before.
Ashley Jankiewicz: And I'm really grateful that I had that experience. I feel like it pushed me outside of my comfort zone a lot. And. Yeah, growing up, I feel like I've just been exposed to a whole variety of cultures, and , that's always a benefit to be able to,, see the world, , from other people's perspectives, to have those conversations.
Ashley Jankiewicz: I've been to a lot of countries. I have friends who I consider best friends who are all over the world. And, I think that's awesome, as hard as it is sometimes to try and, , Find where I belong and, you know, have people that I love be so far away. I think there are a lot of [00:24:00] pluses and yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: Is there something that you think people typically get wrong about either past as kids or third culture kids? Like do you think we Assume something that maybe isn't true about them.
Ashley Jankiewicz: In,
Zanita Fletcher: in what,
Ashley Jankiewicz: what context?
Zanita Fletcher: , you know how people just have ideas about like, Oh, pastor's kids are this, or third culture kids are this, or.
Ashley Jankiewicz: Yeah, well, I've had a lot of people tell me to just. Get over it because it's amazing. Why should I, why, why should I be struggling, you know, or yeah, so, that, that can be challenging because I don't want to come across as saying, you know, this is all terrible. This has ruined my life, but it does come with its challenges.
Ashley Jankiewicz: So. It's kind of a balance.
Zanita Fletcher: It can be awesome and still struggle like those things can both exist, of course. [00:25:00]
Jarrod Stackelroth: And you mentioned a lot of people were surprised you're now working for the church. Even, you know, which is not surprising to me, but yeah, it's an interesting element that people don't, people make assumptions sometimes.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , as we wrap up this conversation, Ashley, we usually like to leave. with something practical. What can I do about it? I don't know if there's anything, any themes that have come out of your life or even just this conversation today that you think, , this would really help our listeners to do, to think about this week or perhaps they can become a more welcoming group of people,, , and look for people who feel disconnected or yeah.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , what are your thoughts on, , How we can apply , this, the learnings,, the experiences that you've had into our lives in the coming week.
Ashley Jankiewicz: Well, I feel like I've come to this understanding that I don't belong in one place, but I belong a little in a lot of [00:26:00] places. And I think that that's true for all TCKs, , , immigrant kids, you know, really anybody who doesn't feel like they belong all in one place, even if you don't feel like you have that place, that doesn't mean that you don't belong, you know.
Ashley Jankiewicz: A lot, a little bit in a lot of places, and I think that. That's cool, , and it's okay to embrace your differences and to be able to say that, , maybe I don't fit in, but that's okay. And to remember that ultimately your value comes from God. It doesn't come from other people. It doesn't come from.
Ashley Jankiewicz: , other cultures and all of that and yeah, so if you're struggling to find your place in the world, just take your time, try to step out of your comfort zone and I think [00:27:00] that the people who will love you for you will find you and also I think understanding that life is full of seasons. I often say that my life is a collection of short stories and that something will be different.
Ashley Jankiewicz: Something will change because it, it always does. And that can be scary, but really good things can come from that.
Zanita Fletcher: Love it. Well, thank you, , for sharing your experiences and being so honest and open. , it's been really cool. It's yeah, definitely not something that I've experienced and. Probably not Jared either, but it's been, yeah, awesome just to hear about your life and just the things that you've kind of come to.
Zanita Fletcher: So, thank you, Ashley, for joining us today.
Ashley Jankiewicz: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Just before we go, I can see the wind outside Zenita's window picking up a little bit. As we're recording this episode, Cyclone Alfred is [00:28:00] bearing towards South Queensland, Southeast Queensland. And so we're just thinking of you Zenita, and we hope that the next day or two, , when.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Things are scheduled to hit, , go well, that you stay safe and all of our friends and family in Southeast Queensland stay safe as well. We just pray, yeah, that God protects that, that space and that there's not too many catastrophic things happening, even if property It's damaged, that can be replaced, but human life , is very, , precious.
Jarrod Stackelroth: So we just hope that things go well for you Zenita and for everyone up there , in Queensland.
Zanita Fletcher: It's definitely amped up since we started the. This episodes . Close all the windows and muffle down .
Jarrod Stackelroth: Mm. All right. Well, on that note, yeah, we pray for the people of Southeast Queensland and we just hope that they, , the next week or so for them is, , a safe and yeah, good one.
Jarrod Stackelroth: But we, until next week, [00:29:00] hopefully, we'll see you all again, same time, same place, and God bless you all.
Zanita Fletcher: Thanks, Ashley. Thank you.