Record Live Podcast

The wilderness experience_ Does God use pain to teach_
Intro: [00:00:00] Hi there everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Sunita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church faith and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we'd put into practice. Let's go live.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It is that time of week people. It is record live, and we are very excited to join you once again. Live on YouTube and Facebook and you can listen to the podcast. There's heaps of ways to engage, so we'd love to hear from you as well because we are live this week. We've had a couple of pre-records in the past couple of weeks, and we haven't had that audience interaction.
Jarrod Stackelroth: So if you're watching this, please feel free to comment. , let us know where [00:01:00] you are and what is happening in your world and what you think about today's conversation. I am joined by Zita, my lovely cohost.
Zanita Fletcher: Hello, Jared. Hello, Jesse. Hello everyone else.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Hello. Hello. It's always great to have Zita and Jesse is a relatively frequent guest on the show, I guess we could say at this point.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , a friend of the show, Jesse, is our, , we work with Jesse, both Zita and I on Signs magazine, signs of the Times Ministry. , and yet Jesse relatively often writes for the record and Jesse has written an editorial, which did quite well on Facebook. , when we put it there. , it was kind of a devotional piece about the idea of rivers in the desert and some of God's promises in the Old Testament, and we thought really at the heart of that is this idea that in the wilderness when we as Christians have these wilderness experiences, well, I.
Jarrod Stackelroth: [00:02:00] They're very frequently mentioned in the Bible, and there's often a strong meaning attached to the wilderness experience. , and then does God actually use those experiences or how does God use those experiences in our lives? So that's the big question. That's the big topic we're gonna tackle today.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And so welcome Jesse. It's great to have you on as always. To start with, let's tackle what is the wilderness in the Bible. It's mentioned many times. What does it stand for? Or is it just literally a geographical place?
Jesse Herford: Yeah. I think the wilderness is many things, as you've mentioned.
Jesse Herford: Often it is just a physical place that provides a sense of, , hardship. I mean. For those of us in Australia who have ventured outside of the, green belt of, , east coast, sort of, , the rest of the interior is, is quite [00:03:00] inhospitable to to humans. And of course, indigenous folks in Australia have, , inhabited the interior of Australia for thousands and thousands of years.
Jesse Herford: But, , it's hard to grow stuff out there. It's, , often hot, or in some cases, in some parts of the world, , quite cold, dry. , so it's not a place that is conducive to plant life, to livestock, to, , civilization, you could say. And of course, this is true of the ancient world. This is true of the Middle East and the Levant region, where the stories of the Bible often, are told.
Jesse Herford: Interestingly enough, at least we look at from a biblical perspective, the desert is often equated with. The idea of de creation or uncreation. So in Genesis one, we have the chaos waters, which we often love to talk about. You know, the deep waters. , that's where the monsters live. That's where you know the dragons live.
Jesse Herford: , in a [00:04:00] similar fashion, the desert is a place of de creation of uncreation. So in Genesis one, we have the chaos waters where the dragons live. In the desert, we have a place that is not good for life where a snake emerges. So it's implied in Genesis two, that's where the serpent comes from, that tempts Adam, , and e well eve specifically, but then later Adam.
Jesse Herford: And so it's a place that is inhospitable. It's not good for civilization, and it is both metaphorical , and physical. You can understand why an ancient culture would've created, , a lot of the stories around the desert., it's a,, a place deep with meaning.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , we don't often associate those early stories. It's a garden we remember, not the wilderness that came from, I guess. And, and so that's very interesting to see [00:05:00] that right from the early pages of the Bible.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And often when a theme is mentioned in the early pages of the Bible, it. Carries on throughout. It's keeps some of that meaning. , the Israelites famously wander in the desert for 40 years and that continues that theme, I guess. Jesus goes into the desert to be tempted. A lot of those you could say, I guess what you are saying is they play on that early story , in Genesis, but can you tell us, like from some of those examples, what.
Jarrod Stackelroth: What does the desert represent beyond, , what you've mentioned so far? Like what usually happens to characters who get led into the wilderness?
Jesse Herford: Yeah. I think the wilderness is synonymous with the anti, the antithesis, maybe let's say of God's created good order. So God is the creator of green things of trees and hills and rivers and seas.
Jesse Herford: Places where human beings can [00:06:00] live and thrive and build civilization and live in unity with each other and with God. But the desert, I think represents, I think, ultimately death. , the desert represents hardship. The desert represents the absence of God's goodness, God's order. I mean, if you just think from, the stories that you've read and the TV shows and the movies you've seen.
Jesse Herford: The desert is often the place where the bandits and the rebels and the miscreants hang out. I mean, if you were to think of this in terms of, , the recent Dune films, the desert is where the, , ar Iraqis people live., it's where the, , the remen live rather. , these people, that are tough and quite brutal.
Jesse Herford: And that's a story that's played out in many, many different. Context. And so , when characters enter the desert, they're usually one of two ways. They either enter the desert of their own free [00:07:00] will often because they've got no, no other options. So we see this in the story of Hagar, Hagar. Ishmael, we see this in in Genesis 16.
Jesse Herford: Hagar literally means the immigrant, and she's rejected by her adoptive family. And so she wanders the only place that she can go into the desert, and she's going into the desert to die. And God meets her in the desert and provides an unexpected source of life and, , and unexpected. Again, turn of events in this desert place.
Jesse Herford: , or as you said, Jared, , sometimes people are led into the desert through necessity or through no will of their own, or no choice of their own. , the Israelites don't have a choice. They have to go through the desert, , in order to avoid the hostile nations that lay between them, between Egypt and the Promised land.
Jesse Herford: So, the desert is also the place [00:08:00] in, , the early Israelite tradition where the scapegoat is released into, , during the day of atonement. The sins of the Israelites are heaped upon the scapegoat, and then it is set into the desert. To, ultimately die. I mean, that's what happens to it realistically.
Jesse Herford: So it's a place of death and it's a place where it's on the border between god's good created order and the chaos,, elements that seek to undo God's created order.
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm. Yeah, I think we all know those, that imagery of there being like a stream in the desert, providing life or, , after maybe a bush fire, there's an incredible force that's splitted up or we all know of those like metaphors and that imagery that comes after those like desert wilderness seasons.
Zanita Fletcher: It's almost like. We can have that hope that we're gonna come out of it, but when [00:09:00] we're in it, it feels like it's lasting forever. But why do you think that? , sometimes God requires us to go through those seasons of just. Dry desert wilderness because I feel like , in my wilderness experiences, I guess you could say I've been really frustrated because I'm like, is this all just gonna be for some stinking lesson?
Zanita Fletcher: , like why do I have to, why does all of this have to happen in order for me to learn something? Like why can't we as humans learn things in the bliss , of life? Hmm. Because it, I don't know, sometimes it seems like it's , a cruel thing. Like I know that we say that God doesn't do these things, but
Jesse Herford: Yeah.
Jesse Herford: Yeah. Yeah. , , it's interesting because, you know, like. Jared mentioned the, the episode where Jesus goes into the desert and, , I believe, I could be wrong, but I believe the text at least in maybe Mark or Luke says that Jesus was led into the te, into the desert to be tempted as if God is guiding him there for the specific purpose of going pain and suffering.
Jesse Herford: Which is [00:10:00] not a nice thought to consider. , Far be it from me, Zita to. Assume that I know God's motives. But one thing that I have noticed about the desert as, as much as it is a place of harshness and pain, it is also a place of silence and quiet and stillness. And many of us, especially, I think this is relevant in our more relevant every year that goes on than ever.
Jesse Herford: Live in a, many of us live in a world that is just busy and full of noise, and perhaps it is a side effect of the desert experience that maybe God at some point wants us to lead us to a place where we can actually hear his voice. . I'm reminded of the, story of Elijah, escaping [00:11:00] from, king Ahab.
Jesse Herford: And he runs away and experiences this cacophony of weather events, , , the storm and the fire and all that sort of stuff, but it's in the still small voice as he's sitting in his cave in the middle of the wilderness, in, no man's land that he actually hears God's voice. . And perhaps it is the case that God does not wish to shout through the noise to get our attention.
Jesse Herford: Perhaps it is his desire that we would actually put ourselves in a position where we can hear him. , That has been the case in my life. I don't know that's everybody's experience, but I think perhaps that's some function of the desert perhaps.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Hmm. That's a interesting, and in some senses, a beautiful picture of, you know, among, amongst all the noise. God's little, still small voice reached Elijah, , it was there comforting him At the end [00:12:00] of all that, , I know for myself, Sunita, we've talked on this show before as well about surrender and that sort of thing. So Jesse's point about, the stillness and the accessibility of God.
Jarrod Stackelroth: We can actually hear him outside of the noise. But I think even more than that, sometimes you have to rely on God in the desert because you don't have any other options. , I'm thinking of the Israelites. , God provided their manner. God led them with a pillar of fire at night and, a pillar of cloud during the day, and it was like God was their.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's only option for navigating and for getting sustenance and for surviving that wilderness experience. And I think sometimes as humans, we always look for meaning in disaster and difficulty, and. The wilderness experience in my experience, in wilderness seasons that I could paint them as wilderness seasons in my life.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's been like [00:13:00] eventually God becomes my only option for getting out of , that space, I suppose. So whether or not he, he led there, , or he just allowed me to go there because I needed that space. . I guess 2000 years of Christian theologians have debated , this question, but it, and so it's not, you know, it's not clear cut.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's not easy for us to say what God's motivations are. , but he does give us free will and, he promises to meet us in that desert and to sustain us potentially while we're in that, while we're in that space.
Jesse Herford: Mm. I'm, I'm reminded of, , probably the. Prototypical example of this, I think in the Bible is the job story.
Jesse Herford: , you know, a guy who, for all intents and purposes, has everything that he could ever need. , he has wealth, he has a loving family, and it's all taken away from him, and I mean, doesn't even have his health. He is covered in sores, and he is sickly, and he [00:14:00] is delirious. There's a. A theologian, I wish I could remember his name, who talks about the job story and one of the conclusions that he comes to when he is talking about what's the purpose, , what's the purpose of this cruel, horrific sort of story.
Jesse Herford: Is it just a,, object lesson in, in God's grandeur? I mean, in relation to what God says to the end, of the book. But he makes a really interesting point. If I can find , the quote I'll share it with you guys later, but he talks about how. If everything was stripped away from you and everything, you lost everything that was dear to you.
Jesse Herford: And at the end of it, all you had was God. Would God be enough? And I think that's a challenging thought for all of us, especially for those of us who have a lot. I think the more that we have, the more that we stand to lose and. That looks very different if you're living in, let's say, China [00:15:00] or, Sub-Saharan Africa versus if you're living in, beautiful wealthy Wahroonga where we are currently sitting.
Jesse Herford: Um, I. It hits different.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, for sure. I think going back to what you said Jared about , like he promises to meet us in the desert. This is something that I feel like I've been challenged by in the past because, and CS Lewis talks about this as well. He says when his wife died, he felt like a door, had been slammed in his face.
Zanita Fletcher: And he is not just talking about because he lost his wife. He's talking about because of the. Silence that he was met with in that suffering. Like he, he was like this, , this Christian defender, he wrote about God extensively. He stood up for God, but when he experienced that loss, he just felt this emptiness and he thought he was going to experience comfort and he thought he was gonna experience peace because the Bible is just rife with.
Zanita Fletcher: There's promises that when you are in those seasons, you know you can call on God and he will be there and he will meet you and he will comfort you. But I feel like that's not everyone's experience and I feel like when I was in. [00:16:00] My kind of wilderness experience. That was also where I was like asking for these things and praying for these things and I wasn't experiencing it.
Zanita Fletcher: But then I heard a lot of other people say , when they were experiencing loss or whatever it was that that was the thing that got them through, was that like peace of God and that like nearness of God. And so I think that's just an interesting thing. 'cause , it's one of those things, again that's like in the Bible, but it's not really everyone's experience.
Zanita Fletcher: But then it's like you're talking about Jesse, it's I guess this idea of. Is that enough when you get to , that point and , can you hear him? And yeah, it's just, I guess, an interesting idea. There's no question with that. But, also just my struggles.
Jesse Herford: I think probably a lot of people would identify with that.
Jesse Herford: Sunita, I definitely do. I don't think I've ever heard the voice of God audibly. . Or even like, felt that he's speaking to me on a thought level. , I've had spiritual experiences. Those of us who are, serious about our faith journey obviously have had experiences that we can point to that are like pillars to affirm or confirm our [00:17:00] spiritual walk and our growth and all that sort of stuff.
Jesse Herford: But,, when it comes to those, those silent times, I think that's a really, . , that's definitely a, a test of faith. But I, I, I struggle to even call it a test because it feels like I shouldn't say that God is testing us. 'cause then it's all about us, , and , how we respond. Am I, am I faithful enough?
Jesse Herford: Am I, have I got enough faith or whatever. I don't think that's what it's all about, but I think it definitely stretches us. Do you think there's, is that part of Oz design? I dunno.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah. Do you think there's things that we can do in those wilderness seasons, whether we're experiencing comfort or not, do you think we can be like practical about it or is it something we just have to endure and wait until we find that river or come out the other side?
Jesse Herford: Great question. , look, I think as important as it is to listen for God's voice, I think it's also important to listen. To what you are saying to yourself. , I'm [00:18:00] not like there's a certain level of, , I think self, , accountability that we need to give ourselves about our own motivations. I think that desert moments are really great opportunities to test our motivations and what we believe to be true about ourselves and about God and about life, maybe.
Jesse Herford: Interrogate some of those, , assumptions. , oftentimes what gets us into those desert moments is believing things that , may not necessarily be true or putting too much faith, , or too much trust into an idea that may not necessarily be helpful, , or. Maybe it's just the case that there are certain ideas or assumptions that we've clung to, that we need to let go of.
Jesse Herford: I, I mean, it's, I'm, I'm speaking in very broad terms here. I know that there have been times in my life where growth has meant that I'd need [00:19:00] to let go of something or move past something or overcome something, whether it's an attitude or a habit or, a character flaw in, in myself. And the spiritual journey is all about.
Jesse Herford: , I think not just journeying with God, but journeying with your own self and figuring out, uh, with fear and trembling the kind of person that you are and the kind of person that God is making you into. it's not fun either way. I don't think none of it , is all that fun. But, , I think for those of us who have gone through those.
Jesse Herford: Wilderness experiences, they are necessary for us to grow and to actually take that next step in our spiritual journey. Whatever that form takes.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Hmm. That's an interesting point you know, you mentioned at the start that these desert places were seen, , in the ancient Near East as like de creation spaces and just what you've said now, you know, joining those concepts together, it's like [00:20:00] sometimes we need to be dere.
Jarrod Stackelroth: In terms of before we can be built up again. Um, I'm thinking of Moses. I love that. Yeah. I'm thinking of Mo Moses. You know, Moses was a prince of Egypt and didn't quite get it right and went into the wilderness to tend sheep for 40 years. You know, talk about silence of God, like he must have had a lot of questions, but also he was.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Being unmade , in a sense, you know, he was being stripped back and de decreed. And not that's, yeah, it, I think number of things can be true at the same time. Like it can be a really difficult, terrible experience. God can be silent there and stuff, but God can also bring useful things out of those things.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And not that,, he does. Purposely sometimes put us through trials, but if we find ourselves in trials, he can bring springs out of the desert. I [00:21:00] suppose he can use that, but sometimes we are not ready for the blessing unless we've been deconstructed a little bit first. Deconstructed may not be a kosher word to use, but you know what I mean.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Dere, I do. , stripped back I think was something that you said, Jesse, it strips away the. The pretension, the pride, the, sometimes just the comfort that keeps us too comfortable to actually help anyone else or to do good. And , sometimes it's just self-sufficiency thinking we can do it all on our own.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's interesting in both the Moses and the Jesus experience, and there's probably some parallels, intentional parallels there, but there was,, there was silence. And then there was almost like a trial or some temptation stuff, and then the angels ministered to him, , and then the Holy Spirit came and it's almost like.
Jarrod Stackelroth: God's there ready to pick up the pieces, but sometimes we learn something in the silence or we [00:22:00] learn. , I wrestled with this for quite a long time in my own life. Like, God, why won't you just answer this prayer that I have? Like, I really want the answer right. , about things like. What's my future?
Jarrod Stackelroth: What's my calling? What do you want me to do in my life? Like, I've asked him these questions and I've been like, why don't you, why don't you answer me? , I think at one point I came to the conclusion that if he had answered me, if he had made it easy for me, I wouldn't have known myself as well.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Potentially I could blame him if things didn't go well down the track. Like if I took the road that he set out and then it didn't go as well without my choice, without my input, without my conscious, , contributing to that, then I had the opportunity to resent him. So he taught me patience, but he also gave me the opportunity to take responsibility almost of my own stuff, rather than like, [00:23:00] actually other things happen.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And somehow I put together in my head that it's all his fault. 'cause he led me down this road. You know that, that may not work for everyone. That may not make sense, but that's a point that I came to in my own journey, like, why is God taking so long? Why is God so silent? Why isn't he answering my prayers in this wilderness space that I feel like , I'm finding myself in.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Hmm.
Jesse Herford: Yeah, that's a good insight, Jared. I think God lays out pathways for us, but it's up to us to walk them and, we often, we often look for somebody to blame for our, , misfortunes., and maybe, yeah, maybe sometimes it is God's fault. , who am I to say about your situation in particular?
Jesse Herford: You know, whoever's listening to this and thinking about what's going on in their life kind of thing. But one thing I have learned is, , that God, walks with us through the desert place. , even if it feels like he's silent. I am, I'm [00:24:00] reminded that God was silent, , at Jesus's crucifixion and Jesus has the famous, , cry.
Jesse Herford: He cries out, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? As he is taking on the whole sin of the world, and God is silent , in that moment, , God as silent as Jesus goes through. , his, the transfiguration, the Garden of Gethsemane, God is silent when Jesus is in the desert. And so I think if Jesus has gone through all those things, then he understands and he can identify with us.
Jesse Herford: He knows what it's like. He's been through that stuff. I think. I think even if that's not necessarily. Comfort to everybody in every situation is definitely comforting to me. To know that God isn't so high and mighty, that he doesn't understand that actually he gave himself, and that he himself has gone through those same things that we go through.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, I think it's sometimes really difficult for [00:25:00] people to. You know, we say we trust God, but I think a lot of us really struggle with that. And I think some people find it difficult to know when they should be trusting God and waiting or when they should be just like discerning and making decisions and making actions because sometimes it seems like nothing is happening.
Zanita Fletcher: Um. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure there's many more things we can go into for this conversation. We probably need another half hour. 'cause it's one of the things that've been debated and talked about for. A very long time. , but I guess getting practical, Jesse, , for people who are struggling to trust God or who are in those wilderness seasons, , do you have any encouragement for them?
Zanita Fletcher: I, I know there's , obviously things that they can probably do, but, , yeah, maybe you can just leave us with some encouragement instead, because I think this is just one of those like really sensitive areas for people
Jesse Herford: mm-hmm. In the deserts of, . Interior Australia and Africa, [00:26:00] you can go through long, long, long periods of drought, of dryness, of scorching heat, but when the wet season comes, it's, , it springs up quickly and sometimes it almost feels like it springs up out of nowhere.
Jesse Herford: Mm. I'm sure you've, , seen those documentaries of. , the river running through the desert and it's like, what is going on? Like how, where did this come from? It starts as a trickle and then suddenly it ends up in a torrent. And , in the case of Australia, you know, your home state, Jared Lake Eyre is this tremendously massive lake that.
Jesse Herford: Starts small as like this barren salt plane, and then it transforms almost overnight into this place that can supply so much, life. It's incredible. So I think in the desert place it can often feel like it's going on forever, but it can change just like that. And I think [00:27:00] that's what God's power in the desert is like.
Jesse Herford: We can go through these long periods and feel like nothing's happening, nothing's moving. But I think in a moment it can all change, the right circumstance, the right person at the right time. These periods, which can sometimes feel like they're stretching on for eons can suddenly turn around.
Jesse Herford: And God is the God who turns situations around. God is the God who can take a desert and turn it into a garden. , and I think that when it's, when we're, when we're in the middle of that, it can feel difficult to trust that. But for those of us who have been through those situations, , where you feel like there's nothing that could happen, , to , turn things around, we know that sometimes God just does stuff and things turn around.
Jesse Herford: I mean, just a recent example , in my life, my, , my [00:28:00] wife just came off maternity leave, , a few months ago and just was trying to apply for jobs here and everywhere, you know, in her field, outside of her field, further afield. And there was just nothing happening, just nothing for weeks. She would send in applications and she would try and get interviews and she would just not hear anything.
Jesse Herford: It was just really, really, really discouraging. And then out of nowhere, suddenly a job, almost literally just plants itself on her lap. And it's five minutes away from our home. And it's, you know, it's within the organization that we work in. It's within her field. There's a lot of stuff that she already knows.
Jesse Herford: It's like, you know, maybe it's not the perfect job, but it's as close to the perfect job for her in this season,, as we can get. And so, that's a huge blessing after weeks and weeks and months of. Desert. Suddenly a spring comes forth. And that's, I think what God does. I think God loves to do that.
Jesse Herford: And so I [00:29:00] guess my encouragement is if you feel like in you are in the desert place, wait for , the spring, do what you have to do. Sometimes we have to do some work before God can move. Sometimes it's just a matter of waiting, who am I to judge? And if you've. Gone through the desert experience and you've experienced that river in the wasteland, share it with other people because you never know who might be going through a desert experience of their own.
Jesse Herford: And for those of us who are in the middle of it, it can feel crushing. It can feel like there's no way out. And so knowing that there is a way out and that actually God is the God that can turn situations around, that can be incredibly encouraging to., so people who feel like there's, there is no way out.
Jarrod Stackelroth: What a beautiful thought to land on. Thank you, Jesse. It reflects on what we talked about last week about sharing our stories and it's also biblical. I've got here in front of me, Psalm 107. . Give [00:30:00] thanks to the Lord for his good. His love endures forever. Let the redeemed of the Lord say so those he redeemed from the hand of the foe.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , down in verse four, some wandered in the desert in the wastelands finding no way to a city where they could settle. They were hungry and thirsty. Their lives ebbed away, and they cried out to the Lord in their trouble and he delivered them from their distress. He led them by a straight way to a city where they could settle.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men, for he satisfies the thirsty and he fills the hungry with good things. Mm-hmm. That encouraging message from the Psalms, just that , when you're hungry, when you're thirsty, when you're in the wilderness. When you're in the desert, you're not out of God's reach.
Jarrod Stackelroth: He can always, Reach you and he can turn your situation around. So be encouraged this week. Family. , thank you Jesse, for really some thought provoking conversation today. , really enjoyed [00:31:00] this topic and I think we could talk about it for a lot longer, but, , we'll leave it there for this week. Until then,
Jarrod Stackelroth: god bless,