Record Live Podcast

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I can't  believe it's been another week since our last record live.

It's crazy. It feels like the week is only just starting, but tomorrow's my last work day. Which is kind of crazy.

I did read something recently that was talking about why time seems to get faster as we grow up and it was talking about how we don't, , This isn't what record live is about today, but it's a fun fact. It's like when you're young, you are constantly learning stuff, so time actually goes slower.

But when you're older, you're more in routine. You are learning less things typically cuz you, , have been doing the same things for years and so time just feels quicker.

Mm. I thought you were gonna say, cause I'm getting old.

No, but it's like, as we each get older, that's the natural thing that happens.

I saw someone's theory that, because it's a much shorter period of your life each year in terms of the percentage of your overall life. Like when you're a newborn, every day is like half your life. But then it gets. Less and less of a percentage each day of your overall life that you've so far lived.

So interesting. Either way, I'm, I'm feeling old.

Yeah, likewise.

So an interesting topic today, Zanita. Mm-hmm. The hardest thing for a Christian we called it. And if we were guessing what. Are some hard things. I was thinking about this when we named it this, cause I think this thing that we're gonna talk about today is a very difficult thing for many of us, but it's not necessarily the only difficult thing.

What do you think? Are there other things that are hard as Christians?

I think before I answer that, one day, we should just do a surprise podcast where I surprise you with a topic and then you see how I go, see how quick you are.

What are the hardest about being a Christian? I think there's a few. I think, oh, where to start? I think

I thought of one.

Okay. Gimme some time to think

while you're thinking. , Tithes and offerings being a cheerful giver, depending on your personality, that might be quite a hard thing to give and to keep giving.

Yeah. I think another one is probably, the Bible has a lot of views on things, and I know that growing up sometimes I haven't always known the reason behind those things. Like it seems like there's opposite views for many things in the world. And sometimes it can make more sense, but you wanna be faithful and trusting to God with these other things.

So sometimes just knowing oh, I don't understand that. Like this seems, I think that's a really difficult thing that I've struggled with.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, fasting. Mm. Spiritual disciplines can sometimes be hard. We talked last week about how prayer can be a very difficult thing in certain seasons of your life.

So even just things that we take for granted as Christians, like praying, or depending on the season of your life, that could be the hardest thing. Mm.

And probably tied into self disciplines is like not acting on your temptations or desires or impulses.

That also is a hard thing. Avoiding avoiding willful sin. Yeah. It's kind of a segue because , in some ways our topic for today is related to some of these things, so those are all difficult things. But one of the hardest things we have discovered as a Christian is the the command or the imperative to love your enemies.

On the surface of that, it's a hard thing. But digging down into that, I guess it's connected to reconciliation, to forgiveness, and to some of the calls in the Bible to some of those things. And,, I don't know about you, but human nature sometimes makes it really hard for me to forgive. And there's all sorts of things around this topic.

So we thought it'd be a good topic to talk about today and to just understand a bit better and to explore. So you may disagree that that's the hardest thing about being a Christian. And if you do give us some of your thoughts and your feedbacks in the comments, uh, we'd love to hear from you and what your thoughts are around that.

But let's get into today's topic what do those words mean to us? Is reconciliation and forgiveness sort of the same or are they different?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think often we kind of pull them in the same thing, and we use them interchangeably.

I was thinking about this before and. I actually have come to think just in the last 24 hours that they're, quite different. Like forgiveness can lead to reconciliation, but I think forgiveness is like, the canceling of a debt. It's kind of like saying, I'm not gonna make you pay me back for something that you've done.

And we can forgive someone, but that doesn't mean it's like wise even to let them back into our lives or to create a strong relationship with. Again, it doesn't mean things are gonna go back. To where they were before. But yeah, I think people do often confuse the two as if they are the same thing.

I would say they're not. But would you have any other thoughts to add to that?

Well, I mean, just to go to Google and do the dictionary definition of reconcile, the first meaning there is a verb to restore friendly relations between. So I guess in that sense, you're right, it's not. Necessarily the same as forgiveness because reconciliation, , is a, restoration of relationship, and I don't know if that's always wise or is it, maybe that's the hardest thing is actually restoring relationships and are we called to do that or not?

I guess that's what we're unpacking in today's conversation.

I would say it's also like reconciliation also always impossible because like forgiveness only requires one person. Uh, like you can't force on someone, but reconciliation kind of takes two to tango. Like kind of take both people willing and both people wanting Yep.

In order for that to happen. , it's like the cherry on the top of forgiveness, reconciliation, but,

well, I think, I think the first thing that I always think about when, I think of the word reconciliation is found in Second Corinthians as a chapter five in second Corinthians. I've got my Bible here.

Verse 18, 19, 20, sort of is talking very specifically, but the subheading of that whole section from verse 11 is called the Ministry of Reconciliation. It says, all, all this is from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. Mm. So the first part of that sort of states that he reconciled us to himself.

So I think in that context, we are called to reconcile, and that's reconciliation with God. Mm. I don't think that's negotiable. That's the Christian journey, right? There is reconciliation with God. But then he says he gifted us the ministry of reconciliation, which I take to mean like we're encouraged to reconcile with God and with others.

Um, now I guess the question is, you know, we know in this broken world that it's not always healthy to hang out with people who are perhaps abusive or toxic or, problematic. It's not always ideal to let people that need forgiveness back into your life, but we're encouraged to forgive, you know, Seven times 70.

We're encouraged to love our enemies and, that is a form of reconciliation, I guess, because if someone's an enemy of you, they're set up and pos to you, they're against you, they're against something you stand for or, or something like that. And so to love our enemies, what does that look like?

I guess that's what I'd really like to figure out.

Yeah. I don't know if I have an answer to that. , you can obviously harbor things like bitterness and anger and that will probably show in your actions. But I don't know to love your enemies I think sometimes is to still want the best for them and to still treat them with respect or still honor them however you can without necessarily having that close.

Intimate bond like relationship. , I think you can still love people. Don't know if this is wrong, but you can still kind of love people from a distance.

Um, interesting.

Maybe you disagree. I don't know.

I don't know. I'm, I'm processing the concept, loving someone from a distance. Hmm. Are there steps, let's break this down so we can, you know, work through this. And if you've got any comments in our audience as well, please feel free to share., are there steps to.

Forgiveness or reconciliation or loving our enemies. Like we say, love your enemies as if it's just one simple sort of command. Perhaps it is. Is it just simply the choice to love your enemy and in that case it's then loving them from a distance? You can just make that choice. Or is it a process?

Hmm. And what does that process look like?

Yeah, I think reconciliation for sure is a process. Probably even forgiveness. I think when we think of forgiveness, we think of it as a once off thing. And maybe I've said this in the podcast before, but something that kind of helped me cuz I would forgive someone and then I would have these feelings of anger or whatever come up again and I'd be like, oh, I thought I forgave them.

Like, what's wrong with me? Like, have I not done it properly or is there something I'm missing? But I think forgiveness for us, we have to do it over and over again. Like in the Bible it talks about God can just forget our sins. Like he just throws them into the depths of the ocean. But we don't have the human ability to just forget things.

Uh, I think that's the difference between us and God is he literally just, it blanks out for him. He doesn't remember. And so I think for us, forgiveness is an ongoing thing. And same with reconciliation. Like it's a process. And I think a lot of the time when we don't have like conflict resolution skills.

Probably most of us don't have those. And we don't have like, the skills to work things out with people, we tend to just , Run, avoid the situation, run to the mountains instead of talking about it and working through it. Cause I think that's actually a really difficult thing to like step into that mess and be like, okay, like unless you are married to the person, then it's very easy to just bolt like, yeah.

Um, well you have to, yeah, work on that if you're married, you can't sort of. Call that loving your enemy. Hopefully. Yeah. Hopefully that person's not, not your enemy. No, I, I relate to this because I would hear messages about, reconciliation. , reconciliation was a strong sort of feature of a church that I was attending at one point.

We had some, value statements. And one of those values was,, reconciling with God and others. That was, that was an important trait of being a Christian. And so whenever I'd hear messages in the space of reconciliation, I'd feel guilty, I'd feel bad about certain people that I wasn't reconciled with.

And I guess,, As part of that process, I would wrestle with how do I build a bridge? How do I fix this, relationship? How do I bring it back to, normal? And

I think it is a struggle and I'm not sure I've yet gotten it right, but I am more comfortable with. And I don't think the right answer is just to dismiss it and not to wrestle with it. I think we're called to wrestle with it, but I think the answer I came to, and this was through counseling, so I don't know if I've mentioned this on the program before, but you know, like it's no shame for Christians to go to counseling.

And it's important to acknowledge that when you need professional help, you need professional help and. In conversation in that space, was when I was processing some of my feelings and some of the relationships with some of these people that were really weighing me down. Like the guilt was getting to me like, I'm a Christian, I should forgive, I should reconcile, I should fix this relationship.

And I guess, through that process I was able to see that it was potentially healthiest for me at the time to. Forgive those people, but it wasn't necessarily something that I needed to work hard to make sure that they were in my life. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think it's a good point, and so I still don't have a hundred percent confidence that that's necessarily right or wrong, like, I don't know.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think like the desire to wanna reconcile , is an awesome thing and is important. Like if you have no desire in your heart for things to ever be good between, your enemy or someone again, then maybe that is a sign of something a skew in your heart, I suppose. Like but I think it is also like wise to see if that person, cuz that person might not have even like asked for forgiveness yet.

So even though you might have forgiven them, it's like if they haven't recognized what they've done that is wrong or recognized how they've hurt you, , allowing them back into your life in the same way could be really damaging and could just lead to further pain or separation or whatever.

But it's sort of like when we look at the story of, Joseph in the Bible. His brothers threw him in a pit and, betrayed him and lied to their family about him. And he, it wasn't like when he saw them, he didn't just let them back in straight away, right? He kind of like tested them to see if he could trust them.

So there was still a process of, mm, are they trustworthy? Like, can I, can I trust them in my life again or can I trust them as my brothers again? Like it wasn't just straight away like I love you. Let's join together. There were still things leading up to that.

Yeah, and I, I think the, what you said about, the Christian call to forgiveness is a really powerful and important thing because what I've learned and what I've noticed is that sometimes we perceive slights or, insults that aren't actually there.

Right. So we get upset, we get offended. We get annoyed by things, and the other person is oblivious to the fact that they've hurt or annoyed us. And so in that context, I think it is important to have an external motivation and external push to get over that and reach out and try and make. Peace with the person that you are upset with.

You have to do that work in your own heart, as you said . There is a difference though, I think sometimes that needs to be made explicit between that and a pattern of behavior. So, If you see someone who does act in a certain way to many people, they've done this to you for a long period of time, many years, maybe you've been in that situation cause they're related to you or something and you can't get out of it.

So you see them on an ongoing basis and there's a pattern of behavior. That's, I think when you are, you are given that, ability to have a bit of a caveat in your, how do you forgive this person? Because I think it's important to forgive for your own wellbeing to let go of that bitterness. And maybe we can get it a little into this, but unforgiveness can actually make you sick.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's actually damaging to your wellbeing. Um, cancer and hypertension and high blood pressure and all sorts of things have been linked to unforgiveness. So it's not healthy for you to hold onto that thing. But at the same time, I don't think God necessarily calls us, or maybe he does. I don't, I don't know if, he always calls us to reconcile to people who have toxic patterns of behavior and yet, On the flip side of that, he loves those people and he wants to be reconciled to them.

And maybe your act of outrageous reconciliation with where you shouldn't, they know you shouldn't. You know you shouldn't, but you do. Anyway. Maybe that's something God uses to call them back to. To reconciliation with him. You know, it's a testimony for others. Again, I don't know it's, it's always a challenge for me wrestling around some of these areas, because sometimes for my own wellbeing I need to let go of things and not attempt to reconcile in terms of coming back into a good and a right relationship with that person at the same time,

sometimes it's just very challenging. Yeah. And I think we should be challenged. I don't think we should be okay with the status quo in this area because Jesus, I mean, he forgave the people that were hanging him up on that cross and he wanted to see them in heaven with him. So, I mean, that's wild I think that's why we say it's the hardest thing as a Christian, to me,

it's.

It's an accurate podcast title, I think this week. I've also heard, =this is like a very popular thing to say about unforgiveness, but it's like making your enemy poison, but then drinking it yourself, like it actually harms you. Uh, wow. And like you're saying, there's actual, physical reactions to that as well, but, I think it's really it's a good point what you're bringing up.

Like I think sometimes it actually takes a mediator, To help you figure out if someone can be trusted again, because you can't always pick up on things like, or sometimes if it's someone really close to you, who has broken your trust or hurt , your natural response often can be to wanna just let them back in and give them another chance.

But other people around you or professionals might be able to kind separate things or help you, help you, like know what to do, like what steps you should take going forward, or like what boundaries even look like or what loving them looks like, or, yeah, it's really difficult. It's, it completely dependent on the person and the situation I think.

But what were some of the things, you mentioned your situation. Were there any things in your journey that helped you?

I think for me, Part of it is an orientation towards it. So I am willing to, I'm open to reconciliation. I'm open to civilness and politeness and being, open to that person. I was able to let go of the, , guilt on my part of not having that per those people, that, that person in my life, because I think that's a difficult thing to judge for yourself when you, when you feel.

You've got these competing sort of agendas. On the one hand, you want to be a Christian, a good Christian, and you want to. Forgive and reconcile and let go. And, and on the other hand you are like, but every time you know, there's connection. Every time this person might come back into your life, there might be a real, Disruptive influence that might just throw you off kilter or, or hurt yourself or the people around you that you love.

You know, , there's issues there. And I don't want to go too much into specifics in that sense, but just in my, \ own journey, I think. There's an openness to reconciliation. There's, , openness to forgiveness, and it has to be a process of figuring out how can I let this, how can I let this poison as you put it, go?

How can I let go of this person? But with good grace and goodwill and. Even praying for that person, like giving them to God, letting God deal with it, saying, I can't deal with this. I don't know if I've got the human strength to deal with it, but I need to give it to God and let God work on it.

Yeah. And see where it lands.

Mm. Yeah. I like that point. Good Grace and goodwill, I think From my experience, I also won't go too far into the details, but, one thing I recognized, I was hurt by someone and I decided to not reconcile essentially because there was no like forgiveness that was asked and nothing had changed.

It was kind of like same things were happening over and over again. And I feel like I actually maybe from people in the church copped a bit of criticism. About my strong boundaries, which I had discussed with psychologists and counselors who were Christians. So I knew, and I had prayed about it, that, it was the wiser thing to do, but I still found myself second guessing constantly because I had other people in the church being like, but you have to forgive.

And I was like, well, I have, but that doesn't mean I have to , have a friendship with this person again, kind of thing, right? Mm-hmm. And so I think it is like, Something that you do have to take up with God. And obviously counselors and stuff can help, but at the end of the day you kind of have to check your heart with it.

Like, is my heart in a good place? And can I have grace on this person and can I wish the best for them still?

Thanks for sharing that. It's really hard and it's really important, and I think we make it harder as Christians than it needs to be.

It is a hard thing humanly to love our enemies and to forgive people that have wronged us. That's hard and that it should be hard in terms of, it is a process where we check our heart as you. As you said, and we need to, I think it's a good thing, it's a positive thing of Christianity, that we don't just go along with our human inclinations.

We actually are called up every now and then. Hey, I need to check myself, I need to make sure I'm, I'm doing the right thing in this context. But on the flip side of that, forgiveness can be used. Inappropriately in the church , as a weapon or as a, guilt inducing, motive to, control people, to push people to do things that are unhealthy for them.

So I think we have to acknowledge that when we talk about forgiveness and reconciliation. I think we have to acknowledge that that is there in the church and that it's not necessarily healthy. Mm. And to make sure that we're de-stigmatizing some of the, the idea of removing yourself out of abuse, removing yourself out of control.

Yeah. That is always a good thing and that is always a godly thing. We shouldn't propagate that by encouraging other people when we know limited amounts about their stories to forgive specific individuals, like I think we should just. Put out the gospel message, the ministry of reconciliation, , , the verses that talk about, forgive us our debts as we forgive those who, , debt are in debt to us or have sinned against us.

Some of those verses are very clear, and so those verses can speak to our life and our experience, and they should inform us, they should change us, they should make us more like Jesus. Mm-hmm. But we shouldn't use them then as tools to go around beating everyone else over the head with. Um, in a sense,

, I don't know if this is what the Ministry of Reconciliation kind of alludes to is like that desire for reconciliation, even though it might not be the outcome. I think that's what's good about the Bible is it. Does kind of keep you accountable to things because otherwise, like if we kind of look at culture nowadays, it's like we have cancel culture.

And so if someone says one thing wrong, they're out. Like there's no reconciliation. And so reconciliation or wanting to amend things with others is a really like honorable kind of trait and maybe even like a rarer trait these days, in our culture.

You're right. It's so counter-cultural. I think it's against our human nature to reconcile or to forgive when we've been hurt or injured. To love our enemies is very counter-cultural. It's completely not what is in encouraged or shown in our, in our movies, in our television, Reconciliation isn't often emphasized or pushed.

It's not a cultural value that we have. And so it's just like many things in our, teachings from Jesus, in our New Testament, in our Bibles, they challenge us and they grow us, and they stretch us and, and I think they should, It's a value system that is hard, and I don't think we should shy away from that.

I think we should look for opportunities to demonstrate that because that can be a witness in the end. At the end of the day, I've heard some powerful and amazing testimonies of forgiveness where people, You had the Amish, school that was the massacre, the Amish school massacre, and how the parents embraced the family of , the killer.

You've had, even here in Sydney, , forgiveness Day, I think is celebrated in February now, where, um, uh, and drugged driver killed a bunch of children, some siblings and some cousins of this particular family. And as Christians, they have. Emphasize forgiveness for this person and, and I can't even begin to fathom what that would be like for me.

Yeah. What that would look like. And so you get these powerful stories and they're witnesses to the changing and transforming nature of what Jesus can do for us. And I don't think we should ever underestimate the power in that. That doesn't mean it's easy

For sure. I think it's a good note to end on.

Usually in record live we like to get practical. , last week we didn't really do that cause it was a bit of a hard subject, but I don't know if you have any practical takeaways for people. To finish off this episode,

look just. I think it's good if you've listened this far, you know, be encouraged.

It's not a easy thing. We often preach some of this stuff from our pulpits as like, you've gotta do this, you've gotta do that. It's what everyone does. It's what Jesus does and, it's easy to feel bad about that. It's easy to feel guilty like, oh, I'm not good enough in this area, or, whatever. I think it's an aspirational call.

It's like Jesus wants us to love our enemies, but he knows how hard it can be. He knows that , it's rough. It's, not easy. , But be encouraged. It can make a difference in the world. It can be a light that shines out to others. And I think it's a really important thing to continually challenge ourselves and check our hearts and say, Hey, am I living out this ministry of reconciliation with God and others?

Am I living forgiven and am I looking for opportunities to forgive those who have wronged me? Because the grace and the forgiveness that God shows us is outrageous. It makes no sense that. You know, it's not a balanced scale. There's no reason or rhyme, we were enemies. Paul says of God, and now he's calls us friends.

He adopts us as his children. So with that example, I think it's an encouragement to us to look for opportunities, to be forgivers, to spread the ministry of reconciliation. , while acknowledging it is the hardest thing. Yeah, it is the hardest thing for a Christian to do. Mm.

Awesome. I love it. I love it, but it's also still really difficult.

Yeah. Yeah., it's not an easy answer we've talked today about some practical things and some things to consider, and when you're on this journey, like, how do I do it? How do I do it? Well, we can't necessarily tie this one up with a neat bow either because, of the difficulty of it, but.

It's worth reflecting on. It's worth thinking about and it's worth challenging ourselves with from time to time.

Yeah. It's certainly not a three step process, but it is worth a heart check, like you said

alright, Zanita. Cool. We've come to the end of another record live. That was quick.

Yeah. Time flies full circle.

Back to what we first started talking

about. Yeah, well, we love you all. We'll see you next week. We'll have another exciting, interesting record live 📍 conversation for you and we'll catch you then.

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