Record Live Podcast

 Hi there everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Sunita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church faith and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we'd put into practice. Let's go live.

 Jared, how are you today?

I'm good, thanks Zanita. It's good to be back.

we can matching in our winter vest.

Yeah.

It's getting cold.

Yeah. Yeah. North and south. Jared, we are today talking about something that was inspired by your editorial in the latest record issue. You posed a question in that article and it was, what does it really mean to become like a child?

And this is something that I guess we talk about a fair bit, is having a childlike faith. We can see examples in the Bible where it says that adults should teach children. And then there's other examples where it says that children have a lot to teach adults. And I just wanted to ask you, you are obviously a father. You have two little ones of your own. What have you seen through them as being a parent of two little children about God? Or have they taught you something about how to live your faith?

They've taught me a heck of a lot, Zanita. You really understand love you become a parent. And that's not to say that people who aren't parents don't understand love because they do. There's all sorts of different kinds of loves. But when you read about God the father, and then you become a father, you're like, ah, right.

So this child is made in my image, takes after me, unlike God. Takes after me and the good and the bad points. So one of the hardest things as a parent is seeing yourself reflected in your child. If you are stressed and anxious about a lot of things, and then you see your child react in an angry way or a stressed way to a situation, you're like, oh, they've witnessed me behaving like that, and they've taken that on in some sense. So it's a very humbling thing. Children are very good at humbling you. That's not a bad thing. But when they, you know, when you teach them a lesson like, don't say certain things, it's not very nice or don't watch a screen during dinner or, or whatever, and then they catch you doing it and they give you back that rule in your face. It's a very humbling experience. Um, it's good. You're like, wow, they've learned that lesson, they're learning that lesson, but it's accountability. It brings you up and you're like, actually what am I modeling in this space?

Mm-hmm. And in this place, I guess for the editorial that I wrote, there was a scenario where I had gotten upset with my kids. And, I was, and this is not to make excuses, but I'm not a perfect parent. I was sort of triggered by something that happened and it made me very upset. I probably overreacted and I they were upset by my reaction, understandably. And I'm, you know, six foot, a hundred plus kilos. I'm scary dude. And they're just tiny little things, you know, they're these tiny little people just trying to find their way in the world. And they were frightened, they were upset. And yet the speed at which I was forgiven.

I read something recently. I saw something that says, a great indicator that you'll pass your faith on to your children is if you can actually apologize to them. And now that wouldn't have been a popular sort of idea th even 30, 25 years ago to apologize to your children. You can't ever let them, see that side of you, but.

It's shown that, yeah, parents who are willing to apologize to their children are actually, more likely to pass their faith onto their children. So this is, was, this wasn't why I apologized. I think I read this post, I saw this thing after this incident that I'm describing, but it's just made me think you know about that.

Um, but I apologized and I said, I love you. I'm sorry for shouting about what you had done, and my child was instantly forgiving, ready to give me a hug, you know, water under the bridge. And, and to me I was like, wow. As adults, when people offend us, sometimes we have such a hard time forgiving. I was listening to a podcast which had John Bevere, he's a Christian author and writer, and he actually wrote a book, I think it was called, the Bait of Satan, and it talks about how easily we can be offended and, and hold onto unforgiveness.

Basically, many of us are struggling that we haven't let go of something and it impacts our spiritual walk really heavily. And it just reminded me, again, knowing that we were having this conversation, I was only listening to it yesterday and knowing that we're having this conversation today, I was like, wow, this is what I'm talking about.

Like children find it a lot easier to forgive one another. They have little spats in the playground and then all of a sudden they're best friends again. And it's like we as adults could learn a lot from that example. So I guess that's what got me thinking about this idea of forgiveness, especially but also reminded me of Jesus saying, be like little children.

The kingdom of God is given unto such as them. You're not like a little child, you can't enter the kingdom. Statements like that, that are really quite confronting, I suppose. Yeah.

It's interesting what you're saying about saying, sorry as a parent, because I think a lot of parents freak out about wanting to do the right thing all of the time and wanting to, you know, be the perfect parent. But someone was actually telling me recently that the thing they loved most about their parents was, not that they were perfect, but they were quick to apologize and they would always try to repair things with them and their siblings. So I think it's really powerful when you do the wrong thing to not just brush it off and try and be better, but to actually make that repair and ask for forgiveness and apologize, because I think that's something that everyone finds really difficult.

But in this example that you've given of your children, Jared, you've obviously pointed out that they were, you know, very forgiving and very generous and quick to forgive, quick to forget and all of that. But I'm sure that your children, uh, I could be wrong. I could totally be wrong, but I'm sure that they aren't always like that. Would I be right in saying that?

A hundred percent. The other thing they've taught me about God's love is that that unconditional ness of it, like I love them and I love them so much, it hurts sometimes and yet they give me headaches. Like I will say, don't do this. You're gonna be in danger. The outcome's not gonna be good. If you swing around on your chair, you're gonna drop your drink, you're gonna spill it all over the ground, and then three minutes later. The carpet's wet, and you just like, I have told you, I have put everything before you.

I have helped you to make the right decision and you've made bad choices, and that is a hundred percent the way God sees me. He loves me. He does. He wants what is best for me. He's given me instructions to be obedient to, and yet I still do my own thing. I still mess up and sadden him sometimes potentially with my choices that I make, and yet he still loves me anyway.

That unconditional of it. You sort of, it twigs when you have kids like Oh yeah. They're willful, disobedient little creatures Sometimes they're just doing their own thing. They're fighting with each other. I've got a boy and a girl, and they're in that age now where they're getting a bit older. They don't share that well yet. They're fighting a lot and that is redeemed by how much I love them, by how much they love each other. Like, you see that love and it, it gets you through the, the pressure times, the difficult times, whatever, but it, it is difficult when you're like, Hey, can you please stop doing that?

That's a bad idea, that's gonna have a bad outcome. And they do it anyway. Or they just choose not to listen and you're like, wow, God puts up with that. 8 billion times over every day because we're all his children. You know, he loves us all and yet we're all, we all mess up.

Yeah, he's certainly very patient. I think talking about childlike faith often when people think of that they think of children being very trusting, very innocent, fun. And you know, like you said, forgiving. But we also know children can be annoying at times. We know they can be foolish and temperamental.

mm.

So when God is asking us to have a childlike faith, I think it's important to ask, well, what is he actually meaning by that? Because we don't wanna be childish. But I thought it might just be helpful to look at a few verses , where it talks about this, because Jesus doesn't actually say have a child like faith anywhere, but he does tell us to become like little children. But what does that actually look like? Which parts of children are we wanting to emulate and which are we not?

One of the passages I looked at is in Matthew chapter 18, and, I find it interesting that the disciples are arguing about who will be the greatest.

Hmm. Now either they did that a bit, and there's a few different examples in the gospels or the different gospel writers have just chosen to place it in different places for emphasis. But it seemed like this was a common topic for debate. Like, who's gonna be the greatest in God's kingdom when Jesus sets up his kingdom?

Who's gonna be his right hand man? Who's going to get all the, the laurels? And it seems like Jesus uses a nearby child in this instance as almost an object lesson, pulls the kid into the circle like, hey. Yeah. And he says, listen, I'm paraphrasing.

Unless you become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. So, whoa. I that should cause us to think about what that looks like. And then he says, therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes such a child in my name welcomes me.

So there's two sort of things that I guess immediately stand out to me. Humility. Children don't necessarily have a sense of their own importance. They're sort of equal in some senses. There's a point in their lives where the hierarchy comes in the pecking order. You know, the jostling at schoolyard, trying to find out who's my friend and who's most popular and whatever.

But at a certain point, for much of a child's early life, they're very humble. They see themselves as part of their parents, their extension of their parents. They don't have a sense of self, and they're not trying to push anyone down or to be greater than anyone else. There's that very yeah, that it's a lowly position.

And in many societies, the society that Jesus walked in, children weren't all that well respected or treated, um, they were seen, not heard sort of thing until Yeah, probably 30 years ago. It was the same in our society as well. Children are to be seen, not heard. There was not a lot of value socially, financially.

They didn't bring a lot to the table. And yet Jesus is saying, well, actually, even though they're the lowest, you have to be like them because I want you to be humble. I want you to see yourselves as servants. It's a common theme in Jesus, teachings that you can't exalt yourself. You must be brought down to be brought up.

And then the second part of that, which is interesting. And whoever welcomes a child in my name such as this welcomes me as well. It reminds me of the sheep and the goats conversation. You know, whatever you do for the least of these. So the most vulnerable, the widows, the orphans Jesus is again, emphasizing don't jostle for position and power.

Be humble, but serve the least because I'm with them as well, they're made in my image as well. I love them immensely as well. So jesus flips the economy upside down and he says, look, this is what you think of as the lowest in this place. They're actually something to be valued and something to be treasured.

And I really I. It's sort of a tangent, but it's a passion of mine. Trauma narratives was something that I studied in my masters and it blew my mind to find out that these adverse childhood experiences are responsible or linked to the eight out of 10 causes of death sort of thing.

They're like, hypertension, heart attack, diabetes, you name it, alcoholism, suicide. There's a whole bunch of things that are connected to adverse childhood experiences. Jesus goes on to say, we all, we all know the message about whatever you do to the least of these if you do something to harm them, it'll be like a millstone is dragged around your neck and you're thrown into the ocean.

Like, that's what will happen if you, and it's really like, wow, what you do to a child's is so impactful of that child's future and even their eternal destiny. So we have a responsibility. To not only be like children, but to look after the children in our midst. I think that's a really important point that Jesus drives home with his teaching around children. Sort of off the topic of today's, like how do we become like a child in our faith? But I think it's a really important point that needs to be made as we have this conversation.

I think what's really interesting about that verse that you mentioned that says if anyone causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large stone hung around their neck and dragged to the depth of the sea. When you actually translate little ones there, it's not just talking about those who are young in age, it's actually talking about those who are spiritually young as well.

And it makes me think of when you see a child, say in a shopping center and they'll just talk to anyone, they'll wave at anyone. They'll go up and hug anyone. They don't have this barrier of social class or spiritual levels. They don't look at someone as cool or uncool or they don't see someone as homeless or wealthy. They just see someone as a person and they're happy to interact with anyone. I think a lot of the times we have prejudices and judgments about those spiritually young people because, I don't know, maybe they're not walking in the way and doing the right thing, and we are quick to judge instead of like little children, just open our arms and love.

mm.

You talked about the example in Matthew, the one about entering the kingdom of God and becoming like a child. But there is another example in Mark, well, there's actually two examples in Mark, and one of them, is the same incident as the one you've just shared. But in Mark, there's two incidents. One in chapter nine and then one in chapter 10. And I'm actually surprised they're both included because they're very similar accounts. I think people often refer to the two stories, or the two moments as the same moment, because they're so similar and don't realize that it's one in one chapter and then it happens again in the next chapter. But anyway, it's only three verses, so I might just read it quickly. So it's in Mark chapter 10, verses 13 to 16, and it says, people were bringing little children to Jesus, for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, let the little children come to me and do not hinder them for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly, I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God, like a little child, will never enter it. And he took the children in his arms, placed on them and blessed them

So it is a very similar story to the chapter before and the chapter that you spoke about. But again, I think it connects that child likeness to inclusion of the vulnerable.

Yeah, I did see that story, I think in Matthew, there's a, there's an echo of that. The children, he says to bless them, they come in a chapter later after he's just said, be like little children. The parents bring the children. I. And the disciples tried to turn them away. And it got me thinking like, what? What is happening here? And I like to imagine like when Jesus told that story first, at least in Matthew's Gospel, they were at Capernaum and it's like their hometown and they probably knew the child. So I'm thinking there was some familial allegiance. It was like. That's our child. So that's a special child. You know, this whole idea of religious exclusivity sort of thing. And so this child belongs to us. So this child is to be worth more than strangers, children or foreign children or other kinds of children, and it feels like they've forgotten Jesus teachings about the children when these other children come to be blessed by Jesus. They want to turn them away and say, don't bother him. He's busy, et cetera. And Jesus is like, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking about just your children. I'm not talking about our close children. I'm not talking about our Adventist children or our Australian children. I'm talking about all the children of the world .

He's expanding that lesson because they didn't get it. They thought it was just applicable to their own sort of backyard. And he's really exploring how that's bigger. I guess we've spent some time Anita on what does it look like to have a childlike faith, but I'm curious, the Bible sort of has this theme of maturing in your faith and growing in faith. Is that mutually exclusive? Can you be a child like faith? Should you just be simple and innocent and not study your word of the Bible, just love Jesus and everything will be fine. Or should you have a mature faith and as you get more mature in.

Faith, does that put your childlike faith at risk? .

Yeah, I was thinking about your story of your children being quick to forgive, which I definitely think there is something that we can learn from that, especially if we find it difficult to let go of things or if we tend to hold onto grudges. But also I think we learn skills as we grow up that help protect us from her and help protect relationships. Because you know, if someone is continuing, like say if you continue to yell at your children day after day in a way that wasn't appropriate and in a way that frightened them, it probably wouldn't be wise for them as they grew up to just continue to be like, alright, that's okay, dad. Like, I love you, it's fine. You know, when someone is acting harshly towards us or acting inappropriately to us, I think it's good to set boundaries so that people don't step all over us and so that people don't continue to hurt us.

And so yeah, there's definitely this balance of we wanna be childlike, but. We also don't wanna be foolish.

Naive. Hmm.

Yeah, naive. We don't wanna be unwise. We don't wanna be like children in all ways, obviously. There's some elements we want and there's some elements, we don't want. But I think there is a helpful distinction. I read it in one Corinthians 1420.

Mm-hmm. It says, brothers and sisters stop thinking like children in regard to evil be infants. But in your thinking, be adults. So it's kind of saying,

be

childlike in your innocence towards evil. So pure and uncorrupted, but be adult in your thinking. So be wise, be discerning, be informed.

It's almost like be childlike in your heart and then be like an adult in your mind. So you still need to be wise. You still need to be discerning, but there's still elements of being a child. Being pure and being trusting that we wanna have.

Yeah. I don't remember the exact reference off the top of my head, but I believe Paul talks about when you're young, you suck on, milk. And then as you're older, you get onto to meat or solids.

Oh yeah, that's in Hebrews. Hey. I think it's need Hebrews milk, not solid food. Anyone who lives on milk being still an infant is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. Yeah. But solid food is mature, who, by contrast have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. So again, that's about, discernment and having a deeper understanding of,

it seems like both of those passages are a little bit similar in terms of avoiding doing evil willfully. Hmm. And so, perhaps, as you've said, your heart, your attitude towards forgiveness and love. Letting go of things for yourself at least should be like a child. You should be easy to forgive in that sense.

And to love, to not discriminate, to unlearn the tot behaviors, the prejudices, and the, acculturation that you get. But at the same time, as you get more discerning, you just like you go from milk to solid foods, you should avoid evil, more intentionally, I suppose. The more you know, the more you can make good choices and I think God is all about seeing us make good choices.

You know, intentional. Our intentional choices should be good ones. Hmm. And that's not to say he only accepts us because of that. It's not to say we just have to work our way to salvation, but it's, as we get more discerning, we will make better choices that help us to avoid evil. We don't wanna willfully go out and do the things that we know are wrong just because, we feel like we're under grace and God will.

Forgive us for those things sort of thing.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It also talks about, in Ephesians four, it says, it's kind of a long leader, but it's saying, do, do, do. Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, then we'll no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful, scheming.

mm. Well, if you imagine like an infant, an actual baby, they don't have any control over where they go, what they do. Mm. We say that, it must be freaky for a kid to fall asleep in the car or somewhere, and then they wake up and they're in a completely different place. Like you're, you fall asleep at church and you wake up and you're at home again.

It's like, whoa. Teleportation. Like, how did I get here? Yeah. And so I guess that's what it means, tossed about on the currents. It's like, well, as a baby, you can't make decisions about where you live, where you go, what you do, who you associate with. And in many ways you're just. Stuck with the lot that you're given.

But as an adult, as you grow and mature, you get to make your own decisions. And in the Christian faith, I suppose it's the same way when we first become Christians, sometimes we just go along with the crowd a little bit. We just sort of whatever the popular thing is, whatever feels good, whatever sort of first attracted us to the message, we just go with that and as we grow and learn, our faith might develop and it might change because we're maturing in that faith.

And I don't think that is the same thing as what Jesus is talking about when he says, you have a childlike faith. You should be lowly, you should look after children in your midst, look after the vulnerable. I think they can be related but they're not talking about the same thing.

Hmm.

It's a beautiful tension it seems to have a childlike faith, yet also a mature faith. It's like, it's to be both trusting and discerning, teachable and wise, lowly and loving.

And I would love to keep exploring this, this has been a cool conversation, but I do just wanna land this conversation on a practical note, Jared, what can people do to become more childlike in their faith or to become more like little children.

Um, joy, my kids are very joyful. They play, they laugh, they have fun. Sometimes we can take the joy out of faith. It's all about the head, it's all about making good decisions. I have to be discerning all the time. And so finding gladness and joy and enjoyment in our faith is a really important thing.

And that forgiveness one is always challenging to me. It sticks with me because there are probably things, a lot of things I hold onto that then become blockages with my relationship and my walk with God down the track. I think that if you want to be, I with Jesus and I need to be better at doing this. Just like spending more time, prayer and Bible study and all that stuff. We talk about it a lot because it's practical and it's helpful, but the reality is like that might help you rediscover the joy that you have in your faith. And so for me to have the faith to forgive people that don't deserve forgiving and things like that. I need Jesus to help me do that. I need the spirit to help me do that. And to get more of that, I think would be a very beneficial thing in my life.

Hmm.

Sunita awesome.

I think for me, I really like this picture we see in the gospels of these children running up to Jesus and embracing him and I think sometimes as we grow older we kind of build more walls with God and you know, we stop seeing him as who he is, which is this loving dad.

And you know, as we read the Bible, we see all these different names for God and one of them that comes up is abba, which can sometimes be interpreted as dad or papa. And when I think of these stories of the children running to Jesus, I don't see this intimidating guy on a throne wearing a crown. I think of this papa like figure who is so gentle and just wants to be with his children.

There's actually this really awesome album called Childlike. It's by a musician called John Mark Pantana and the whole album is just around this idea of becoming more childlike in our faith. It's a really fun listen if anyone is interested in checking it out. But yeah, that's probably my takeaway.

Awesome. If anyone wants to read that article that we've been talking about today, forgive Like a Child, it's out on the record website, our Stimulating Conversations.

Anita, thanks. We will see you next week.

Thanks for joining us. God bless.