Record Live Podcast

Sinister or saintly_ is empathy a sin_
intro: [00:00:00] Hi there everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Sunita. Let's go live.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Hello, record Live Family. We have one of the family, pastor Jesse Herford is joining us again. Jesse, we've had you on a few times, but. We appreciate you. It's good to have you, , willing to step in. As you may have noticed now, Zita, my regular co-host is unable to join us this week, and so it's good to have Jesse stepping into the void.
So thanks, Jesse.
Jesse Herford: Great to be here. You, you can't get rid of me, even if you try Jared.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Jesse, today's conversation is an interesting one. [00:01:00] Now we put, we always put a descriptor of each episode, and in the descriptor of this, it's like, is empathy a sin? It might be an obvious question. It might be like, well, of course not. No. And yet there is a social movement at the moment. There are books being written.
There are social commentators peeking up this theme that. Perhaps empathy is the root of all of our problems. You wrote, a science article called Is Empathy Killing the West, on that very theme and we thought, yeah, great for signs for them to have all the fun over there, but let's bring you on record live and let's get to the bottom of this topic because it does have practical implications for us as Christians.
. First of all, I, I thought we would define empathy According to the internet. The source of all wisdom, [00:02:00] empathy is defined as the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Hmm. To understand and share the feelings of another.
That's a, it's very basic level, the definition of empathy. How, why would anyone have a problem with someone being able to understand the feelings of someone else?
Jesse Herford: Yeah. This is, really the core of this, I think, came about around the time when, , president Donald Trump began his second term. There is a now infamous moment where he is attending an Easter, , not an Easter, , a Sunday service at the, , church closest to the White House.
It's where typically a lot of presidents have, , gone to church when the time comes for it. And the, the Bishop, [00:03:00] Bishop, , buddy. Made a, an appeal to the, directly to the president and to his , inner circle, to show empathy, to show compassion to those in America who were feeling afraid, who were feeling, vulnerable.
And of course there was a lot of. Discourse around , this request, very, very little else of the sermon was actually spoken about. It was really this moment, , this moment of, an appeal for empathy, an appeal for compassion. And it's not that this was the start, but this was, I think, the moment in the cultural discourse where the idea of empathy actually being a bad thing entered.
, The public conversation. And so, so the
Jarrod Stackelroth: interaction there popularized an idea that was already, because, you know, I remember that sort of [00:04:00] moment. That wasn't that long ago. And yet, , in your article you referenced at least three books. All on this very specific topic. Surely they were in the works , or even released before this moment.
Yeah. But you're saying that really was the tipping point that pushed it into the cultural awareness?
Jesse Herford: Two, two of the three books I believe were published before, , this moment. One of them has only just released, so perhaps it was influenced, perhaps not. You know, the publication process is long. Uh, but it's definitely, I think.
I think it was kind of like a match lighting, a tinderbox that was already there. To be very clear. The, the, the, the conversation under the conversation. I think, and we're probably gonna come back to this a lot, it's a lot of cultural war stuff and we are living in a cultural moment where cultural issues are the ones that a lot of people are, are the hills upon which people are trying [00:05:00] to die?
So immigration, abortion,, the role of women in society. These are all obviously very hotly contested topics, and they all find their unifying factor in this idea of empathy and. In a very unexpected way. I would say it, I wouldn't have, if you'd asked me a few years ago if this was gonna be the thing that we were gonna talk about, I wouldn't have expected that.
But here we are.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , Can you give us a sense as to how those things are linked? Because the things you've mentioned aren't necessarily obvious in my mind , to this point, , , so maybe just lay some groundwork for us, the basis of the concept that is being touted. Now,, clearly from your piece, you disagree that empathy is a sin.
, We're not necessarily taking , that side, but. What are the commentators who are putting forth this idea? What are they [00:06:00] saying in a nutshell?
Jesse Herford: Yeah. Well, , I'll quote, , and I'll paraphrase just to for the sake of time. So, these are, two of these are evangelical conservatives. Just to be, to sort of place where this is coming from.
, One of them is Ali Beth, Stuckey. , She says in her book, toxic Empathy, how Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion. Toxic Empathy pushes us to not only have compassion for someone's difficulties, but to unquestionably affirm their feelings, because if we were in their shoes, we'd want our feelings to be.
Affirmed. So her argument is basically, you hear this a lot in churches, the whole, , you know, affirming emotions, anything goes, live your truth sort of thing. Her issue is that. Her assertion, I suppose you could say, is that this is actually making its way into public policy.
So governments signing [00:07:00] laws that affirm people's emotions rather than, , the capital T. Truth. She goes on to say in her book, when they call you hateful, bigoted, racist, or any other epithetic, it usually means they dunno why they believe what they believe. So their insecurity manifests itself in anger, ,, pretty, harsh, , sort of words.
But that's, I guess. That's kind of where this is coming from. And each of these books, , that I mentioned in the article kind of come it from a different angle, but they all have their root in this idea. That empathy, when it goes to its most logical conclusion, will make us side with people, not because we believe their viewpoint or what they say or what they stand for, but because we feel an emotional connection to them.
And so it causes us to betray our [00:08:00] own principles, what we should stand for.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Mm. So it's like the whole nice Jesus caricature, turn the other cheek, don't stand for anything. , Is it just, a step in for permissiveness? Is that really what they're sort of arguing instead of actually empathy?
They're suggesting that people are just permissive. On things that they disagree with because they feel like they wouldn't want someone to tell them what to do, so don't tell me what to do, sort of thing.
Jesse Herford: I think that's part of it. Definitely. , It's, I think it's about, I think it's fundamentally about,, what you believe and the way that manifests in how you live your life.
I think there's also kind of a undertone of. Kind of macho, like anti, anti macho weakness in there. Christianity in, in particular in the United States, [00:09:00] has become a faith that is much more embraced by men, young men in particular, flocking to Christianity. But it's interesting to note that women who have been.
Historically, the largest, , represented gender in Christianity are leaving Christianity. So , it's an interesting, , kind of dichotomy. , And the other author I mentioned Joe Ney, he's an evangelical minister, he talks about this, how empathy is it's feminizing. Because, , and this look, I'll, I'll say up straight up, I think it's an incredibly sexist take that he's going on, but he talks about how empathy, because it feminizes, it feminizes the church, it feminizes , our leadership structures.
And he, warns that it could ultimately feminize our institutions and. Our nations. So [00:10:00] that's, , it's a pretty harsh take again. , But that's what he's putting forth, his contribution toward the empathy argument.
Jarrod Stackelroth: So potentially coming from the why men hate church, , and , the macho sort of alpha, alpha Jesus idea of Christianity, sort of building up Christianity to be some sort of.
Masculine aggressive religion. , Is that. These things are linked, is what you're saying, that this movement is growing out of some of that background. It's some of the similar ideas in the undertones, and then they've talked about that. What is the difference between compassion then , in this.
Sort of commentary because, , one of the books you mentioned against empathy, the case for rational Compassion, what do they see as the difference between empathy and compassion? Because I think, yeah, to understand, to argue these terms or to [00:11:00] understand what they're actually saying, we need to understand how they're splitting hairs.
Is it just semantics? Are they just using different words to describe different things than we might think of when we hear those words?
Jesse Herford: Yeah. Well it's interesting you mentioned that one. 'cause Paul Bloom is the only non-Christian in this, in this list of authors that I mentioned. He is a , secular humanist, I believe.
, I think I. You could probably say it's semantics, but I think they would say the difference is in attachment or detachment. So they would, I think, say empathy is about putting yourselves in the shoes of another. So much so that you feel what they feel, you experience, what they experience, and so you end up wanting what they want, even if it's counter what you want or what's good for you.
I would say, I think they would say compassion is. Seeing the plight perhaps of another person, but being detached enough to be able to [00:12:00] still feel your own feelings, to be able to prioritize yourself and the interests of you, and perhaps your in-group, , while still having a measure of emotion being stirred in some way toward the cause of somebody else.
Probably that's what they would say.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It is interesting because it's a , it seems like they're coming from a perspective of being very well off, , not struggling with the things you can be compassionate downwards, in a sense, rather than being empathetic upwards, sideways.
Yeah, roundabout.
Jesse Herford: It does seem a little condescending. I mean, if you are the person coming at from a place of privilege, and of course, I mean even me saying somebody coming at it from a place of privilege is probably some people wouldn't like me even using those terms. , But when we think of the place that we hold in society , for me to refuse to [00:13:00] empathize with somebody who has less than me, who doesn't have my shared experience, who has a different color of skin perhaps, or whatever, .
Yeah, there is a level to it that's, it's still maintaining I'm a bit better than you or whatever. I'm sure that probably somebody would be offended to characterize them that way, but I do feel like , there's a part of that at play.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Is this just the old Christian argument of sort of evangelism versus social justice?
Like is this repainted. Those battle fronts in a different space. Like, there's been debate, I guess, in the church, over should we be focusing on social justice, , specifically in the Adventist Church. I think especially we've got this. Time message. We've got this agenda to reach the world, to go into all nations.
And , that's very important. And some people then argue that , the social justice, helping feeding the [00:14:00] poor, , widows, orphans, et cetera, that's distracting us from the mission. The ones special message that we've received to tell the world is that just this argument . Rehashed repainted.
Like, Hey, don't get bogged down in the feeling for other people. The poor you will always have with you said Jesus. So, , stay on task, stay on mission.
Jesse Herford: It's an interesting question. , I don't know if I've thought about it in those terms. I would definitely, I can definitely see where , that's coming from.
It makes me think of when the early church, the attractiveness of the early church was not necessarily in their message. Of course there was a certain amount of the message of Jesus that was powerful, but the early church was persecuted because of their message, because the message of the gospel, the message of Jesus was so offensive to a polytheistic , hellenized [00:15:00] world.
But the thing that the early church did that I think, , from what I've read was so attractive , was their social justice, was the way that they cared for the poor, the way that they took care of orphans, the way they adopted, , , the babies that were thrown out, , widows and,, the radical way that they treated rich and slave and in between all the same.
So. I think maybe we've forgotten about that a little bit. And in,
Jarrod Stackelroth: in some ways that was, that was , the message and the methods were also offensive. The methods equalized society. So they pulled up the poor, pulled down the rich, you know, because they were giving out things and they were sharing things in common, and they were helping widows and orphans.
So all of a sudden, this highly stratified. Society was under threat. You know, the social norms were under threat, and in some ways it was almost just as [00:16:00] radical as the, this guy died and rose from the dead and, and he's the one God that we worship as, as well as we're helping the widows and orphans and people you say are worth nothing.
And those two, those two pronged messages sort of offended. A lot of people.
Jesse Herford: 100%. Yeah. I, I don't think you can do that without empathy, you know? Mm. I don't think that you can, you know, rescue a little baby if you don't see that baby as having value and not just see it as having value, but, see the potential of what that, who that baby can grow up to be, , , or a widow that in Roman society would be.
Class as useless because she doesn't have a male protector or a slave who is just a commodity. How can you uplift a person like any of those if you didn't? , , if you weren't fundamentally transformed by the Christian message of, , there [00:17:00] is no Greek, there is no Jew, there is no slave nor Greek for your all one in Christ, ?
, That message in Galatians , and the rest of , the gospel message throughout the New Testament, I think testifies powerfully to the value of each person. And , you can't embrace that message, I think, without embracing empathy. I'm sorry if I'm getting to the altar cult already, but yeah, I think , that's finally true.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Preach is gonna preach. . So we went, , we've sort of established the platform, the arguments I suppose. , , we've looked at the early church. We've started to talk about that, Christian, , where does this interplay with Christians? And their contention, these commentators is that it's.
It's allowing. , And the subtitle, how Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion. It's not even necessarily talking about Christian progressives. It's just a left, right wing sort of thing. , And they're almost suggesting that people who are progressive are exploiting this Christian kindness to.
Get to get them down to, to, make them [00:18:00] feel empathetic and get across agendas that they might not otherwise agree with. I guess switching tack, you've spent some time understanding their ideas, but let's go to the Bible now. Why do you think empathy is a key trait that Christians need, or why do you think that?
. Their arguments aren't hitting the mark for Christians.
Jesse Herford: I think, , for one, I don't think it's possible to read the stories of Jesus and not identify him as a person who feels empathy. The Bible, to be clear, does not use the word empathy. Empathy does not enter the English vernacular until the early 20th century.
And it comes from a German word, which came from a Greek word. A Greek word that's not used in the Bible. So it's not a word that is used, it's not a concept, , that is, defined. I think there's no mistaking that Jesus was [00:19:00] empathetic. And I think probably one of the best examples of that is in the story of Lazarus's death in John chapter 11.
And, the most famous short passage in the Bible, the shortest passage verse in the Bible is John 11, verse 35. Jesus wept. Two words, two simple words., Basically the same in every translation of the Bible. And why did Jesus weep? Jesus doesn't weep, because Lazarus dies, though it's part of it.
Jesus weeps because when he finally visits Bethany to see Marian, Martha, his dear friends, the two sisters. They fall to his feet crying. You know, if you had been here, Lazarus, our brother wouldn't have died. It's at the emotion and the anguish that these two women. Displaying their feeling. , The Bible tells us that Jesus was [00:20:00] deeply moved in spirit at their emotions.
He identifies with their emotions and he joins them in expressing their emotions. He feels their grief and he empathizes with them. , I think it's unmistakable. And so this is, . Theologians, ALS , all talk about how the life of Jesus is like the true typical, the true human life.
Like Jesus expresses what it means to be a true human. Yes, he's God, he's also fully human. And this is, I think, a fully human moment. And so I think to deny empathy is to deny. One of the fundamental aspects of what it means to be a human. , And it's not just this. There's also the famous parable of the sheep and the goats, , where Jesus talks about, , for those who did unto the least of these, who did it to me, and on the flip side, [00:21:00] those who, did not do it to me.
So everything that we do, every action of. Anger, resentment, bitterness, lying, slander, , evil., As well as every moment of generosity, of love, of kindness. It's as though that we are doing it to Jesus and he identif, he identifies enough with the human condition and the human, soul to, to make that leap.
So, I think it's pretty clear.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Well, even his, , I'm thinking of that they suggest it's one of the earliest Christian hymns , or poems , in Philippians. I think he did not consider equality with God something to be retained or held onto grasp, but lowering himself, he took the form of a servant, human likeness and died on the cross.
Now, compassion would be, I. God sending, I [00:22:00] don't know, lightning bolts to wipe out the enemy, take away sin, , give us some handouts, feed us, and make us like better. Raise us up from our station, I suppose. But a very empathetic thing that Jesus did was to understand and to embody our experience.
Isn't that what the whole incarnation is about?, That's what came to mind as you were . Defining those elements of Jesus actively demonstrating empathy. Like his whole mission was empathetic in a sense.
Jesse Herford: Yeah. God became flesh and made his dwelling among us. , That's, yeah, , it's massive.
It's a massive part of his ministry.
Jarrod Stackelroth: What do you think some of the dangers are of shutting off that empathetic muscle, like. Going, oh, I'm not sure about this. I think, we should maybe be wary of being too empathetic to others. What can that look like,, do you think, and why is it dangerous [00:23:00] to not just a person, but society and you as a Christian, your experience as a Christian?
Jesse Herford: . The danger in shutting off our empathy module,, is to not be able to see every human as a human and. We need only look to the lessons of the 20th century to see, what happens. , So many people will know about the Nuremberg Trials. You know, after World War ii, the remaining Nazi leaders that are still alive.
, people like, Joachim Von Ribbon Shop, , Wilhelm Kol, , Ernst Colton, Bruner, others. High up in the Nazi command were captured by the allies and, , held to trial during the Nuremberg Trials. A, a Jewish American psychologist, , by the name of Gustav, Gilbert Gilbert.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Mm,
Jesse Herford: thank you. , [00:24:00] Interviewed, , listened into conversations with some of these very high ranking Nazis and.
He wrote a book called The Nuremberg Diary, , which is pretty chilling, but perhaps most chilling , is the decision or the conclusion he makes about the nature of evil. And I'll just quote directly from the Nuremberg diary, he says, , speaking to somebody that he is communicating with, I told you once that I was searching for the nature of evil.
I think I've come close to defining it, a lack of empathy. It's the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, all these Nazis, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow man. Evil, I think is the absence of empathy. We've talked about Jesus' empathy. We've talked about, , the Christian sort of ideal.
I don't, I just, I think this has gotta be one of the most conclusive and just [00:25:00] nail on the coffin as far as the argument against empathy is concerned for people who need to piece together , the jigsaw pieces, the reason the Nazis were so successful. Eradicating 6 million Jews, Slavs, gay people, black people, , disabled people was because they were able to convince , the German people that these other groups were not truly human.
They dehumanize the Jews, they dehumanize these minority groups to the point where the average German would not see them as a fellow human being. And when you no longer see a fellow human being for what they are, it's much easier. It's much easier for you two. Line them up and shoot them in a firing squad or to process them in a gas chamber,, or [00:26:00] any number of the atrocities that were committed by ordinary people who ordinarily would never have done something so heinous.
, This is a tool that people like Joseph Bels, the propaganda minister of Hitler. Used knowingly. And he, in his diary, is completely transparent about the fact that most of it's rubbish, but it's a very valuable tool, the propaganda. , And so I. As far as the lack of empathy is concerned, I think this is just incontrovertible.
I mean, yeah, the, I don't know what else to say about it. Aside from, I think this is something if you're, if you think, if you are tempted to go down the route that a lot of these antipathy people , are going, I think you really need to sit with this and really, really think it through.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Hmm.
We've. [00:27:00] Quickly run out of time. It's gone, , quite quickly today. It's, , flown by. But just to leave us, we always finish on a practical note. So what should we be doing? We've talked about, , not having empathy , as something to , sit us up and wake us up , and , think about seriously, but in an effort not to dehumanize, in an effort not to, .
Or to love our fellow man and to love God as Jesus , said we're the greatest commandments. How do we do that? What can we do this week that makes us a more empathetic person? I.
Jesse Herford: , There's a story that I think Andy Stanley, the, , evangelical pastor once shared.
, It was an illustration. , I dunno if I've shared this before on record live. , I may have, I'm not sure. He says, , if you are a parent. And , you're meeting up with somebody and they treat you with respect and deference and you know they're generous with you and [00:28:00] blah, blah, blah, but they mistreat your kids.
How much worth is that respect, that deference, that generosity? He says, if you are a parent, I think any parent can say it's worth nothing. , If your kids are being mistreated, you are gonna hate that person. And he said that's exactly how God feels about each and every one of us.
, Empathy is the metric by which we show how much we love God. How much we love each other. It is impossible, I believe, to love God and to not show love for those around us, especially those who don't look like us, who don't speak like us, who don't have the same life experience as us. , Just because it's harder doesn't mean it's not expected of God.
And so this is for the Christians in the room. I think that. If we are serious about loving God, we also have to love our neighbor. , , as the sheep and [00:29:00] the goats parable illustrates, the measure by which we show our devotion to God is through how we treat those around us. And we can't treat those around us, , with the love of God without.
Without empathy, to be able to see each person as, a fellow, son, daughter, as somebody made in the image of God. , It's vital. I think it's Christianity 1 0 1, it's the gospel. , And so I think the challenge for me, and I think perhaps the challenge for all of us is who's the people in our lives that we struggle to?
Love, who are those that we are biased against? Perhaps it's those people that God is calling us to engage with more deeply to, , build bridges with, not burn them down. It's a difficult, it's a difficult, , call, but I think that's probably, [00:30:00] if God was, wanting to challenge us, I think that's what he would challenge us with.
Jarrod Stackelroth: . Thank you, Jesse, for sharing, , those thoughts and, Your peace is empathy. Killing the West is available@signsmag.com. I'm just going to put. That link in the comments so you guys can read that article to find out more about what we've talked about today.
Until then, Jesse, thank you for coming on and for the rest of you have a good week and God bless.