Record Live Podcast

Salt_ light and the ballot box_ How should Christians vote_
[00:00:00] Hi there everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Sunita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church faith and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we'd put into practice. Let's go live.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And we're back with another episode of Record Live. It's good to be back. We had a break last week. Zanita things have been a bit chaotic. We had a number of people at different camps. We had some, , leave being taken and so we had to have a break. But we have a very special guest today, Igor. Let me see if I can get his last name right.
Maybe you can tell us your last name, Igor. , give us your job title [00:01:00] and your role, , and just let us know maybe something interesting about yourself that people wouldn't know.
Igor Radonjic: Um, my name is Igor. Um, I, these days I'm a church lawyer. , why? Because God had a funny sense of humor, I guess. , and, I'm the legal counsel at the South Pacific Division.
,, the inaugural legal counsel of the division. So I suppose, , the, the first one, , and something about me, well, , I was a refugee. I came to Australia when I was 15. Didn't speak a word of English. Uh, not that it's, , much better these days, but, , I also. I am an avid, , plane spotter, so I'm an aviation geek.
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm.
Jarrod Stackelroth: There you go. Well, it's great to have you with us, and we're talking this week about a very timely and a very topical, , thing for us who live in Australia. Now, not all of our audience might, and we recognize that, but most of us in the South Pacific division are in democracies, which means that every so often we have to vote to elect our [00:02:00] leaders.
And Australia is on the brink of a federal election, meaning everyone in Australia, . We have compulsory voting here, so everyone will, many Adventists may have voted already because of the, , elections always being held on Sabbath. Many of us choose to postly vote. , but you wrote a bit of an article and we've put it up on our website.
. And it's called salt, light and the ballot box. How should Christians vote? And just to introduce the topic today, we're not gonna tell you who you should vote for, , but it's more about you are reflecting on the principles of how to vote and some of the, I guess, the discernment that a Christian should use when it comes to approaching, .
Some of these issues. Now, you've, , lived and worked in Canberra as well, so you've been close to the government and the workings thereof. You've worked in, , I believe in some government capacities and and stuff, or you've been up close and personal with, , with how government works. And so I guess today we're gonna [00:03:00] reflect on our civic duty as Christians and, and how our faith and politics might interplay or even.
Oppose one another. You know, let's get into it today. So, , thanks for bringing your expertise and joining us for this very interesting conversation. , we should start by just, a very, general question. How should Christians engage with politics?
Igor Radonjic: , oh, that's a, that's a tough one. And that's a, that's, that's both a complicated one and a simple one.
I, I guess how we, , we. Wow, okay. This is a hot seat, isn't it? We should be doing it. We should absolutely engage. I'm all for engagement because if we don't talk about things, , as Christians, both in church, outside the church, , we're not gonna be able to influence things. So this is not about being right, this is not about being wrong.
This is not about picking,, you know, the blue and the pink or the green on the yellow or whatever, whatever those. Party colors are. But what this is [00:04:00] about is having a conversation. And I think it's important to have a conversation, especially the one where your views are challenged. , a lot of us sometimes, , you know, have these little echo chambers of our own thoughts because of our friends, et cetera.
But actually it's good to have, , a conversation. So for me, how do you engage in politics? Is one, actually knowing what you're talking about is, is number one, be educated. , about different political issues or different PO political parties, what they stand for, how they do it, and understand some of the history behind it as well as understand some of the actually political science that that goes there.
Now, sure for some of us who are boffins, I. , you know, and, like to read and sit at 2:00 AM in the morning on Wikipedia, trying to go, oh, this is interesting. This is interesting. Sure. Some of it might be a bit more complex and have different lay levels, but the end, at the end of the day, it is about a very simple conversation, , that you have in order, to educate yourself about issues.
And then think about it very much, what does that look like from a Christian perspective? , and this is where that article [00:05:00] came from, is, uh, about discernment.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, the article is linked there for anyone who wants to read it. But Eagle, I must admit, I am a bit naive and uneducated when it comes to politics, and that's not because I want to be, I'd actually really like to be more informed.
But I feel like it takes so much time and effort to just get up to date with the different parties and the different, , things we're kind of advocating, , that. I feel like there's things in life that kind of take precedence, like I care more about spending time with friends and family or like pursuing my career and things like that, that I just kind of struggle to find time to educate myself about politics.
, and I don't know if other people can relate with that, but are there like ways or resources or, I don't know, channels or platforms that you. Would suggest people can just start so that they don't have to,, spend hours and hours researching.
Igor Radonjic: So by no [00:06:00] means asking people to enroll in a bachelor of political sciences, right?
So that's, that's one way to learn. But all I'm asking it, it is a bit of a process that takes a little bit of time and as you go, , you learn from different sources, different things, and this is where being engaged in conversation, , really helps. We live in, in a very. Peculiar, well, not peculiar, sorry.
In a very, , I suppose advantageous age where technology can work to our advantage, where you can just quickly, , search something, whether it is chat, GPT, whether it is Google, whether it is YouTube. Have a look at some of the reels. , ask a simple po like I remember when people were trying to understand what was happening in the US in terms of what's the difference between,
uh, sorry, I have a blank. , but just, just, just literally Google it , and ask us, ask it, ask some questions and see, , it's important to have in that, . , in that entire conversation, it is important to have variety of sources, and this is where the danger comes in, where you technology works against you because those [00:07:00] algorithms know what you like and what you've clicked and what you've viewed, and it'll keep serving the same kind of,
content to you. So it is important to read. You know, if you can have a look at Russia today, have a look at,, Deutsche vla. Have a look at BBC. Have a look at A-B-C-S-B-S in terms of the news sources, but then also see what people are saying and have a conversation with your friends. I learn a lot about American politics from, from my friend Tamar, who was.
So fully into it. And I can't say that I'm really successful. I can even, na can't even name the two, , two, two parties over there. Sorry. But, , complete mind blank. But, , what I'm saying is, again, engagement and, and a healthy engagement. So obviously not engaged to the, to, , expense of spending time with your family, but I just think it's as, as you go.
, it's, it's. Do you want to, do you wanna know? And if the answer is yes, then , this is a little bit of tiny little bit of investment that's required and then just keep your ear out. The politics in terms of, as it, as it happens from, I love listening in the, in the morning to a BBC news just because it just gives me that quick download, , maybe what I'm used to as a public servant, , , for, , a decade and a [00:08:00] half.
, plus, you know, I'm used to just quickly, , listening to a, b, c in the morning so I can get my download on my way to work. And that's. You know, often enough, , for, for people,
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Adventists have an interesting relationship with politics. We, we sometimes come from the perspective of separation of church and state.
You know, we're an American originating religion. So there's a very strong sort of theme of like, , and I've often heard this from people like, . We shouldn't be involved, we shouldn't be agitating, we shouldn't be speaking up on these social issues like leave the politics outside. We should be focused on mission.
That's often , the argument that they use. But then, , from my understanding of Adventist history, also from the beginning, we were very much involved in the abolition movement and the prohibition movement. And we had our pioneers campaigning on those. So what do you think? Is there a middle ground?
Were were the really, , radical Adventists from our pioneers sort of, [00:09:00] right. Are we more right when we listen to those who say we shouldn't be involved? Or is there a nuanced sort of middle ground that we should reach?
Igor Radonjic: Um, I
Jarrod Stackelroth: think
Igor Radonjic: there's very much a, a middle ground that we can reach. , I fully understand how attractive it can be to, to side yourself to the left or to the right and be able to, , think about these catchy slogans and, you know, the wave of people doing things and what's trendy these days, et cetera. I just as I, as I, , sent a link around, on, on my. Couple of my platforms. I actually got a,, an email from a dear friend of mine, which, , which was, , a, strongly worded email in a sense, , asking, you know, whole heap of things to think about it, and I loved it. And why did I love, getting emails?
From him was because it made me think and actually stop, , and very much, , was along the lines of what you've just asked. Well, as Adventists, we have not just Adventists, as Christians, we have a duty to, to inform the world around us of what's happening. And I think if we are silent, I. Things will happen [00:10:00] in any event.
So it's better for the things to happen with our involvement and our input rather than without it. 'cause there is no point of, , trying to cry over spilled milk if we had no input in relation to how that milk should be stored. Right. Or how it should be handled. , so we have a duty as Christians to positively influence the world, , in a way that, , it is, , from a biblical perspective.
'cause , that's. , what, what Jesus and , his, his disciples did, as well as this is what we do as a church. As a church, we actually have an entire PAL function, which is the public advocacy, , public, . Affairs and religious liberties. And we do advocate for the religious liberties, for example, in a very active way.
We may not do it in an overt way, , where we are in people's faces, but we certainly work with the governments, with politicians, with, , various other, , other churches or the faith institutions, non-faith institutions. We work with everyone in order , to present the view. , the biblical, , view of the world.
, so for example, on issues of abortion, uh, we as a church don't support it, um, in general sense. But there, you know, there is a [00:11:00] principled way of actually having that conversation, with anyone and being able to represent it. So I think as I've, my, my strong view is that, , we as Christians have a duty to inform the process and people around us what our belief is not to impose it.
There's a difference between imposition and, , not doing it forcefully, but doing it in a way to educate, in order to, , win friends. Sometimes it won't win new friends, but it is about principled, , representation of what, where we stand. And I think as a church we do it in a way that is that middle ground.
, 'cause. There's always, there's always going to be extremes left and rights and where, you know, it's so easy , to pop into both of those camps and that's not what I'm asking people to do. Actually the opposite. Asking people to be careful not to do that because we as a church, we should be balanced 'cause Jesus was balanced
Zanita Fletcher: in my opinion.
I like how you phrased it in your article, you said, we are stewards of influence. , , we have a comment here from [00:12:00] someone watching on and she said there are some candidates whose party policies are not aligned to biblical values. How can we approach such? And I just wanted to tag on the end of that because I think some people, , they look at one party and some parts align.
With Christian values, but then other parts don't, and it's kind of confusing to know like which things to side for and which things to not. So in terms of discerning these kind of things, how can we kind of navigate that, that tension in those gray lines?
Igor Radonjic: Hmm. Look, perhaps I'd ask the question then, what is discernment?
Right? And , for me it's the ability to tell the difference between what looks good and what is good. So it is thinking clearly, not just reacting, it's being able to see, through the noise, , spot what really matters and choose wisely, especially when the opinions are complicated and emotionally charged.
So for me, do you support, . I don't have to support in order to have a conversation. And I think it's extremely important for us as Christians to be [00:13:00] engaged from the point of learning, listening, trying , to understand, , what drives the other, pe, other, you know, people's you. Interests and positions.
'cause that's what we need to do in order if you, if I'm going to have an influence in the world, I need to understand the person in front of me and vice versa. So again, that engagement comes into it. And then when you, when it comes to, , discernment, , in my head there's a couple of, just couple of, , principles, that I, , that I think about.
The first one is about clarity. So seeing through the noise and the spin, . It's about, , principle over preference. So choosing based on enduring values. , number three for me is about long-term thinking. So just looking beyond, , the short term. , I mean, , faith means investing in what may we may not necessarily fully see yet.
So if, I guess doesn't happen around this corner, it might actually happen around the other one. , and then, . 1, 2, 3. So the fourth one would be, , freedom for all, not just some. , and for me, , [00:14:00] freedom is for service, , not selfishness. And I think that's that's the important factor , people talk about, you know, freedom to do, , whatever they want, but I.
There's really no freedoms. If you think about it, all of our freedoms are curtailed in a particular way, in a particular framework that the law has set through the parliament, and which is, you know, , which is upon us. So I guess for me, this is freedom is for service, not selfishness, and that's an important point.
And then finally, it's humility and courage together. Listening deeply, but standing firmly. And sometimes you just need to say, look, we disagree. , I have friends, who are of all sorts of persuasions and we know that we disagree on certain things, but there is no need to reconcile the two. Sometimes there is no need to reconcile the two.
'cause reconciliation happens here and happens here, and in my view, under the influence of Holy Spirit, right? , , rather than us having to agree on a particular issue. And sometimes that courage grounded in God's presence is so important, not the [00:15:00] pride. 'cause you don't have to win every argument.
We sometimes wanna always be right, but I'd rather have a relationship you than be right. Because when I have a relationship with you, you'll be more open to listening to what I have to say rather than if I want it to be right. Anyway, sorry. This is the world according to Igor. So.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Love it. There's a verse that comes to mind when you speak about, , discernment. And obviously in my role, , as record editor, I have to be discerning sometimes We get all sorts of opinions come through and, it's a passage that I really like. I've just looked up the actual reference, Matthew, I.
10 verse 16. Jesus says, behold, I'm sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. So be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. What do you think, in terms of discernment, I'd really love you to just give us a thought on that verse that wise as serpent, but harmless as doves. How does that play into what you've just been sharing with us?[00:16:00]
Igor Radonjic: Our message is what it is. And there's two ways to deliver the message. One is in a way where it wins, friends, or there's a way where people are heard, people are understood, people are accepted, people are, , through a friendly manner. And this, , where you can deliver. there's two ways.
So, ,, I'm gonna be a little bit controversial here. Uh, , when I say this, but a lot of the times we as Christians, when talking to particular part, let's, let's say, you know, talk engaging with, you know, somebody says, oh, what do you think about L-G-B-T-I issues, right? So the, you know, we straightaway say, oh, you know, everybody will burn in help.
Not that we as a church say that, I'm just saying I've heard Christians do it. And then I sit there shaking my head, going out of all the bi beautiful things in a Bible. We choose , to start with, all sinners [00:17:00] will burn in hell. Right? , so for me , it's not that, let that kind of a message be a, , a natural consequence of the Holy Spirit doing the convicting after you have actually shared the message of love and hope and Jesus, , and salvation and all the rest of it, right?
So again. Message doesn't change. I'm a sinner who requires Jesus I struggle with, and here's a square bracket of, and there is an endless list. You can scroll and scroll and scroll of stuff that I personally struggle with, but I. , the continuation of that sentence, I'm a person who struggles with, here's a square bracket and I need Jesus because, and then there is again, another dropdown menu with square brackets with whole range of reasons why I need Jesus.
So this is where, when we start from a wrong end, , this is that be wise, a serpents and then be as gentle as dove. So for me, being a dove, it doesn't mean I agree with you, but it doesn't necessarily [00:18:00] stop me from being Christian. Towards you, with you, , through you all the rest of it. 'cause that's what, to me, it's about service, right?
So, and we serve the communities, which then actually means we serve everyone regardless of, , you know, then we might also get into the issue, you know, , do you require my approval to live your life? And the answer is no, the same as I don't require yours. So again, we, we sometimes mix those things , as, as.
As Christians. , and if it comes from the place of I wanna have a relationship with you, rather than be right, then we fulfill that dove part of the, of, of the, of diverse. Compare it to , and then that wiser serpents. Well then wisdom will come from Holy Spirit, who will actually then guide you to approach you, to give you an opportunity to share the message.
Or alternatively, you don't have to share it. Let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. I glad the Holy Spirit. , I, sorry, quick anecdote. , I didn't get [00:19:00] convicted of tithing for a long time, and do you know where I got convicted of tithing? When I visited my friend's Pentecostal church in Brisbane where her husband.
Had one of the most amazing sermons I have heard on, on tithing. Hmm. It's, you know, here I am an Adventist, convicted of tithing in a Pentecostal church sermon. So, God, a funny, you know, funny ways of, of, of, of working. So there you go.
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm. Love it. , speaking of, Bible verses, your article was titled Salt Light in the Ballot Box, which I'm assuming is all.
Also from Matthew. , is that kind of on the same train of thought as what you are just saying here? Like what did you, what were you thinking when you titled it that?
Igor Radonjic: So salt is always salt, it always gives flavor. So it's really, , it's one of those where we. The only way for the salt to stop having [00:20:00] its flavor is if you dilute it in a lot of, a lot of water with the amount of water versus, but even then, it'll still give some flavor, right?
Doesn't matter how much you've got, there's always some presence there, and the light always shines no matter how big the darkness is. , so , my whole, salt and light, , thinking has been, I know you might just think it's just my vote. I may be an idealist and that's fine. Happy to be one, but each, these battles are not won by us giving up because.
Silent faith is so overrated. We need to share what we believe in. We share it in a nice way. We share it, in a caring way, so that we can still be that salt no matter how big the pot is and or how small the salt granule is, or how the small , the small light is compared to the darkness. 'cause salt is salt, and light is always light.
So that's what I was trying to think, that your [00:21:00] vote matters in this instance, and perhaps I'm an idealist, but yeah.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Reminds me of the story of throwing the starfishes back into the sea. Like that someone says you can't get them all, and they say, well, it matters to that one. You know, it's that concept of doing your bit.
To help. , and just on that, I really liked your idea of, , I think you, you framed it, freedom to serve rather than freedom for selfishness. Can you tell us about that? , what sort of is the good impact that we can have and, and why should we be, living in that worldview, living in that framework, rather than just going, , I don't agree with anyone.
They're all liars, so I'm not gonna vote, or I'm gonna donkey vote, or , I'm not gonna get engaged because my contribution doesn't matter. Like, that's almost like, yeah, you're free to make that choice, but that's a choice from your own self needs rather than actually trying to look for how you can serve.
So I guess just unpack that. Why is it important for us to have that. That [00:22:00] greater good perspective?
Igor Radonjic: Well, to me it's very simple. Do you want, are you a Christian or not? Because if you're not Christian, no dramas like absolutely no problems. If you're not Christian, at least be honest to yourself or to others and just say, I'm not actually Christian.
I'm not interested in service. Our whole reason of being Christians is to serve. I became an Adventist because. Of Christian service shown towards me in the middle of the war when somebody from ADRA, , actually knocked on my door and delivered a letter from my mom for the first time. So I knew, you know, after months and months and months that actually she was alive, right?
Because of that. Act of service. In the time of need, I decided to actually join the Adventist Church, right? So this is not about Adventism. This is actually about doing something for somebody else. My father and my grandfather on my dad, , on paternal grandfather, they weren't believers at all in a sense of, , a religious belief.
They believed in goodness of the human soul , and [00:23:00] service to others. Why? Because that's how they were brought up. They were, their principles serve somebody else. So this is where I just think. If we need to be able to serve others to make a change in this world, whether we Christian or not. But doing good to others is not exclusively Christian thing.
It's actually everybody thing. Now think about it. If everybody treated everybody else the same way as they wanted to be treated, we would actually have no walls, we would have no issues. We would not see differences between us, that we use in order as an excuse to divide ourselves. So I'm becoming philosophical, but at the end of the day, it's really simple.
, it's very much serve somebody else. , 'cause that's.,, that's our purpose in life. I, I believe as a Christ, as Christians.
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm. Well said. . They say that there's two things you shouldn't talk about at a dinner table. The first one is religion, which we break that rule every week on record live.
The second one is politics. , but as a church, obviously we talk about religion. We have Sabbath school, we do [00:24:00] sermons. That's not something we're afraid of talking about, but we don't really ever talk about. Politics within the church. Like, it's not something that I've ever seen come up in a Sabbath school or really seen, preached on.
, how can we get better at having these conversations or should we be, or should we just be avoiding them within like our church communities?
Igor Radonjic: I. Don't avoid any topics in the church community is 'cause if we don't talk about it, somebody else will. And if we are not influencing, especially our young people with our message, they're gonna, they're gonna get turn to TikTok.
And then TikTok is bringing up your next generation , of Christians, church leaders, all the rest of it. Not suggesting there's anything wrong with TikTok. However, , all I'm trying to say is don't avoid having a conversation. Avoid being politicized. So don't politicize talk about things. Talk about things with the view of learning.
Talk about things with the view of educating. Talk about it from the point of view. [00:25:00] Curiosity. I wanna know more. Tell me more. That's an interesting idea. Tell me more. But avoid politicizing it. And the moment you start politicizing it, you are taking sides and you're stop being Christian in a sense.
The only side you take is a Christian side. In a biblical one. And this is where absolutely talk about it. Absolutely educate, absolutely engage, but do not politicize. There's nothing more I fear than politicize Christianity is. I'm just gonna put it out there and now be completely on the verge of losing my job.
But, , just saying , it's a call to all of us. Don't politicize, but engage. O
Jarrod Stackelroth: on that note, does that mean that Christians shouldn't join political parties or be politicians? , we have some biblical examples, Joseph , Daniel David, et cetera. And we also had this question come in, , from Jesse.
How would you advise people who want to get involved in the political process as a volunteer or an advocate even? , should we not? [00:26:00] Get involved in a particular side. Should we always be bridge builders and in the middle trying to center everyone? Or should, how does that look? We've got a, we've got a Prime minister , in Papua New Guinea who proclaims his adventism very loudly.
Like,, how does that work for a Christian going into politics?
Igor Radonjic: Look, I absolutely encourage that because we need to, again, have our presence and there's so many mps who are. Godly people, God sent God appointed in a sense. , whether it be, you know, prime Minister and PNG or whether it be a local member , of, you know, of your local council, , or anything in between, absolutely we should be involved.
It's just that you need to make a call whether the party you represent or whether the party you are joining. He's actually going to tick boxes across your entire range of what you believe in. , so this is where that discernment comes in. Everybody will stand behind [00:27:00] something in which they believe, right, or in what they believe.
So, you know, there's a, B, C, D here, there's DEFG here, but then there's some other mix somewhere else. So all of our convictions come. Whether they're biblical or non-biblical, they have some kind of a grounding, whether it's, faith or principle or whatever it is. So when you go and wanna sign up to, to do that, just think about whether that political party or that political candidate actually just fits those boxes.
And this is where the discernment comes in that ability, , you know, to see beyond the slogans beyond anger or loyalty and ask. What am I supporting here? And we'll kind of change, and sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't. And guess what? Go and try and do it. , I absolutely encourage you go and go and volunteer in the wrong party so that wrong parties, you know, but in order to test yourself, to find your boundaries, to, , to, you know, God, to tell you stuff, right?
In a sense of, of three experiences. So, um, look, sometimes it's a little bit of trial [00:28:00] and error.
Zanita Fletcher: Awesome. Well, we've hit about 30 minutes, Igor, but we like to end the things at record live practically. , so before we finish up, is there, I know you've already said get involved, get informed and all of that, but is there any kind of last words you would like to share or any last words of encouragement or advice that you'd like to pass on to everyone listening?
Igor Radonjic: Look, , just give it a shot. , be informed and please don't be afraid of the conversation. 'cause if we are not holding those conversations and we are not positively influencing and we are, 'cause through conversation, you actually serve others. , so this is where I just think, just do it and very much always with respect, always, you know, , like a dove.
, be gentle and remember, you don't always have to be right. You just need to have a relationship.
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm. Awesome. Don't be afraid of the conversation. Good stuff. , well thank you so much for joining us. It's been great to have you on. We could probably do another five conversations on this topic, but we will leave it [00:29:00] there for today.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Thanks, Igor. Thanks a lot. And thank you everyone who's been watching. , I think the thing that I will take with me this week is, not to be in any echo chambers to try and seek out different things from my own perspective and just, , yeah, to learn more about how other people see the world. It may even strengthen my own faith as I go.
Anyway, until next week, we have another special guest for the next couple of weeks, so we're excited about the lineup here on record live. But until then, God bless.