Record Live Podcast

 

Hi there, everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Zenita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church, faith, and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus, faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we put into practice. Let's go live.

  📍 📍 📍 And it's another week of record live. We're excited to be with you again. Thank you Zanita for joining us as always. We have a special guest, Shaylee Walsh. Welcome Shaylee.

Thank you. Hi.

Now, Shaylee, before we kick off today we're going to talk a little bit about An issue that should concern us.

I've heard statistics recently that something like 40 or 50 percent in some areas of members leave the church. So people who are baptized are leaving. They call it membership retention. There's been a lot of concerns in the South Pacific division as well with big campaigns to baptize a lot of people recently.

And it's do we have the resources? Do we have the ability to keep some of these people in the church? And one thing that we all know, anecdotally, maybe through our own experience, maybe through seeing those we grew up with in church leaving is that a lot of times we're worried about our young people who are leaving the church.

And. Those are some of the issues we're going to talk about today. How do we keep our young people? How do we engage well with our young people and how do we give them the opportunity, the best opportunity to remain in the church and to remain committed and passionate and involved in the church growing and leading the church.

So those are some of the things we're going to talk with Shaley about because Shaley has a special interest in this subject. So Shaley, tell us a little bit about how you get us started. What your special interest is and maybe a little bit about how you found that this was a passion of yours.

Thanks, Jared.

Yeah, I, for background, we definitely, cause I do work at the division. So that's outside of the youth space. But I work in Adventist mission as well as marketing and innovation. And part of that, we just did a strategy summit in Fiji and Some of the research, two of the research areas that were picked by some of our unions was retention.

So we've done some massive work into looking into that, particularly in PNG and TPUM. So it is a massive focus of the division strategy at the moment as well. But the thing you've highlighted, and that is really important to me, is definitely the youth side of it. And we did also some studies with Jeff Parker and AUC in just this subject as well.

So there's definitely research out there if anybody's interested in reading that. It is available, just wanted to make that noted. But also My background is in the teen space. So I run a ministry called Imagine Teens as part of the Greater Sydney Conference. It's volunteer based, but there's about 10 young adults who come together and we run an event once a year, as well as try to strategize around how do we get research?

How do we just did a think tank to, two weeks ago with teens across Sydney to try and figure out what are their problems? How do we help find a solution together? How do we get their voices in it? That's a massive, we've been doing it for about six years now. So trying to get into that space. The other side is I'm doing my masters in ministry and theology that focuses on youth, family, and culture.

So I think I was one of those kids who My family had to leave church when I was a teenager. And so I had nowhere to serve. No, I didn't have any connections to the church. I came back in at 19 because Beryl Landers who worked for women's ministries at greater Sydney conference found me at an event I was volunteering at.

And I had this big emotional breakdown with an alter call and she just started to have regular catch ups with me and her just wanting to spend that time with me at a coffee. Maybe I shouldn't say coffee shop, at a coffee shop that was, I don't even remember what we talked about, but it was the fact that this seemingly powerful woman, like in this power, in this position of power, wanted to just spend an hour with me talking about my life.

It wasn't about anything in particular. And God led that interaction and I ended up serving with her for six years and then The teen space came through that and I didn't know what I wanted to do with my career or with my job. And I got a job at the division and then this just , became really obvious that God was using my journey, my story, my lack of stability in church to want to bridge that gap for other teenagers.

So that's where that journey's gone.

Awesome. I think when I hear a lot of young people's stories about whether they came back to church or whether they stayed in church, it often hinges on that there was someone that really poured into them and really invested in them. That seems to be like the thing across the board with everyone.

And it makes sense. And I think I was like thinking about this conversation and almost like struggling to know what to ask, because I feel like when we go to church, We listen to sermons like every week on like how to love better and how to be welcoming and so it seems weird to ask like practically.

How do we love young people? Because it's I think we know what to do, but whether it's, we're too busy or whether it's just society or whether it's something else, we just seem to not be very good at it still. And so I'd just be interested to hear from you do you think we're actually like, is there something that we don't know that we're missing or do you think it's just a matter of like busyness or something else in society?

Yeah, so true though. Like all the ingredients are just sitting there. We do hear it in and out, but I don't actually know if we digest it. So it's like that taking it to that next practical step of, okay, I have this information, just like when I'm studying, if I'm not implementing it into my actual life or what I'm actually doing, what was the point of just absorbing all of that knowledge?

And I don't think we do that. Yeah. All the time when we do listen to a sermon, I think we sit, we hear, we leave and we go about our week the same. And the whole idea is that you sit, you are transformed and you go back into your week different and you use what you learned. And so I think that's a major thing to step towards.

And part of that is honestly just taking risks. I think a lot of the time people are scared of. Or scared of teenagers or young people, like they're not interested. They don't want to actually talk to me. They don't like, they just roll their eyes or a lot of these external ways they present themselves is that fake front that we even do as adults.

Because we're scared to let people in, or we don't like, if you think about a teenager's brain and just the fact that like they're developing at like insane rates and their hormones, they're like, everything is just, everything's unknown and unsure for them. So what they crave is stable adults, stable people in an environment.

So you might think, Oh, they're disinterested. They're not, that's probably just a defense mechanism or just the fact that. That's just what happens when you're physiologically becoming an adult. So I like to say that they're like spiders where you know how I have that saying where the spiders more scared of you than you are of it.

It's the same with teenagers or with young people. Like they are probably more scared of you than you are of them. So just put that aside. Cause you're the adult. And go forth, learn their name have a conversation, figure out what they want to do with their life. It might be nothing, but particularly going into that with no ulterior motives is something that really comes through in studies as well.

It's they're so good at detecting if you're fake and if you're not going in there authentically or genuinely, they're going to turn off straight away. So going in, just not having expectations for that conversation or for that interaction, but just. It's purely I'd like to get to know this person.

And I'm at Avondale at the moment and we did some interviews with some of those young people that are studying here in different courses. And they were talking about that. One said when he left church, he left three different times as a teenager. One was because he was sick. The second time was because of sport.

And the first time when he was sick, everybody reached out because it was the right thing to do. The second time when it was sport and nobody reached out and he's if somebody had tried harder, I might not have left three more times after that. So like we do it when we're supposed to do it, but do we do it even though we don't agree with what they're doing?

Yeah. So I don't know if that makes sense, but that's where I think we're at as a church is taking that next step out of our own comfort zone and stepping into their world.

It seems so easy learning a name, being friendly. Is this something we're missing? Like surely it's, are there any other sort of things we can do to be more intentional in that space?

Yeah. I think, Well, the only other thing I would, probably not the only other thing, the one thing that's coming to my mind at the moment is the idea of relinquishing power is something you can do in your church, whether you're in leadership, whether you're just part of the welcoming committee.

Even if, I don't know where you're interacting with these people. I have heard in terms of showing up, I've heard of, People who just went and attended like kids sporting games and how much that meant to them. Part of that is part of stepping out of your comfort zone or letting teens and young people step into a new space is relinquishing control or relinquishing power.

And you either step down or step aside, or you open a door or you open a window, whatever your church will allow. Cause uh, better at. allowing things in than others. So it might just be like, there's this concept with Fuller who did growing young where they talk about working on the fringes. So it might be easier to work on the edges of your church and gradually make small changes that produce a large change.

So working on small initiatives that get that done. But the biggest part of it is if we're not comfortable Letting someone else step into a space we were in. Nothing is ever going to change. Nothing is ever going to grow because that opportunity is not going to come any other way. You don't move into a job position unless somebody else moves out or one is created for you.

So something needs to happen in order for us to keep young people. We need to take a step at removing ourself from the picture and actually letting them have a shot, letting them use their voice. I

think that's really good advice. But I know that some churches are quite precious about their. worship service, I guess you could say, maybe some people, cause it's on YouTube or it's televised, or they think that's what gets people coming to church is like the good music or the really strong sermon.

How do we, or should we even hold that standard of a really good service and a quality service while letting people who might be a bit more shaky or might not be as great singers on when you're young, you're doing all this stuff for the first time and you're not going to be as good.

So should we still hold that service? Like that stand of a good service. Is that what people are coming for? Or does that not really matter?

Yeah. Yeah. We're going to step on some toes with that comment. I can already think of churches. Oh, I know of too many people who have actually left churches because like young people, people younger than me, like.

People early 20s who have left churches because of that exact problem where it's too produced. There is no room for anybody who's not a almost professional singer to be up on that stage. And they love to express their gift, like one of their gifts is that, is being part of the worship service.

And if you're not allowing. young people to one, learn what their gifts are in a safe space, which is what church is supposed to be about. Then they're going to, they're going to leave because. Which is the whole idea of retention. If you're not allowing them to be up the front, if you're not allowing them to even be behind the scenes or figure out where they fit, they're going to go and find somewhere else to fit.

And that may not be another church. It might be completely removed. So I know that there is space for. quality productions, but how are you actually trying to teach them how to come up to that level of quality? Maybe run a Friday night service where it's not streamed as live and they're learning how to be just as good as you are, because you're not the only person who can sing amazingly.

And a part of that is like us being comfortable in maybe I don't have to be the best all the time. So it I would honestly just, yeah, I don't agree with it because it's making people leave. So I think there's a time and a place for that type of production, whether it's every week, I don't know, but I think you caring and loving and teaching young people how to be in roles like that and supporting them and nurturing their talents is more important.

And is going to mean more to people viewing than a quality production. I know I love to see, there was one young girl at I think it was Marlene Church and she did the tithe she got up and did tithe. And this was a couple of weeks ago. I was watching an online service and she'd have to be like.

And she got up there and she did jokes. She did jokes as the tithe introduction. I'd actually never heard that. It was like, like dad jokes. And I thought that was great. And they weren't polished. Like they weren't like executed with. with ease necessarily, cause she was a little bit nervous, but I was cracking up and I was like, this is great.

Like it made me feel like those warm fuzzies of they're giving someone a go. And that means more to me. They're going and watching something that start to finish looks like a movie production. Yeah, hopefully that answers.

It's interesting when we talk in this way, it's almost brings us back to that question of what church really is.

Church is a community church is a group of people that gathering together to worship. And what is worship again? Some of these questions we've talked about on record live before, but it's like sometimes perhaps people are getting the wrong priorities and not using church as an opportunity to grow and to develop others.

I'm interested in this idea because I guess when I look at my own growing up in the church, there was definitely opportunities at local church that were given and there were people who cared enough to know my name and I had that real connection. One of the times where I struggled was when I had to move into state and No longer had that home church, that local church connection.

And I was fairly a fairly young person, maybe not a teen, but I was, my first job, my first time outside of my home state. So I guess what about when we're older and when we're in transition periods, especially as young people as well, how do we get better at transitions? How do we get better at helping people?

transition, perhaps if they're leaving our home church to move into state to study or to work or to, is there a way you think we can help them to do that? And if we're seeing new faces in our churches, how do we get in and get on them and get them, involved quickly? Cause there might be some reluctance to get involved when you're at a new church, when you're a new face.

Yeah. By the person themselves, but there might also be reluctance to Hey, we don't know who this person is. So how do we get them involved? Do you see any help for our young people in transition periods?

Yeah. That's actually like exactly what I'm going through at the moment. So I moved from Sydney up to the central coast like 18 months ago.

And I had my home church and my membership still in Sydney. And because I thought it would be temporary, I didn't really, I church hopped, which is very common amongst young people at the moment is trying to find an, a base trying to find some way that you fit. I think what could have helped me better is somebody being willing to make.

network connections with someone up at another church. So if you know where they're moving to, maybe your elders, maybe those the mamas, the aunties, the people who like are really caring in your church can try and ring around and, figure out somebody at the other end who can just buddy up with that person, introduce them, get them involved.

I know a huge thing is that most of the time young people want to serve, they want an opportunity to do They don't wanna come and just sit. And so I found that the churches that I tried to get involved with up here it was hard because nobody really did come and talk to you.

So you are the new one. You're not gonna go up and necessarily ask Hey, can I have a position on your board? Or can I be part of your team? That's so cute, . That's just not something we do in society. So there definitely needs to be. that welcoming committee, either just at your church naturally, or you're intentional about my young person is maybe going away to college.

Like maybe they're heading up to Avondale. Do we know anybody at Avondale college church? Oh, it's university church now that we can get in touch with them or put that in place because you're right. They don't necessarily go out of their way to make that connection themselves.

Particularly. I'm not even that introverted, but it's just, not a bridge I'm willing to cross either, even with work in the conference, work in the division. That's still something that makes me nervous and is a little bit daunting. So like, how do you take that away from being their responsibility and make it yours?

I'm not sure I have an exact answer to that other than just networks and trying to think out if that was you in that position, what would help you

I like that idea though, of letting people like hooking people up, essentially, if you know someone who's moving then introducing them to someone who will be down there. Cause I think, touching on what you mentioned, Jared, one of the things that's difficult about being like a teen or a young adult is that you're going through everything for the first time.

So everything is like such a bigger deal because you're like, I don't know how to deal with this. And I don't know what the wisest thing to do about this is. And I think that's why, and this is something that the Growing Young book talks about is. intergenerational relationships are so important. And this is less of a question and more just of a, a comment or story is like recently I know someone who moved areas and her intention was to go to the big church with the great service with heaps of young adults.

And she went there. And she went a few times, but wasn't really spoken to by anyone. And so she's I'm going to go try a different church. And she went to the church plan down the road, which was just made up of 20 old women. And to the women, they were like, Oh, a new girl. Like they were also excited to have her cause she was young and they hadn't seen him before.

And there was just like instant connections. And so she's been there for six months now, which it's like. You would think that she would go to the cool church, to the church where there's all these young adults, but she's actually really loved the church with the 20 old women. And so I think that's just.

Yeah, it's just interesting because it's not what we expect.

Yeah. A hundred percent. I actually had that up here where there's that big church environment and the place I felt comfortable was the little church that is predominantly retired people. Because they're so welcoming and they come up to you and they learn who you are and they're like, Hey, I've never met you before.

Or. Even that, that saying of hi, I'm so sorry if we've already met, but I don't think I've seen your face. It's nice to meet you. Like it covers you if you have met them, but also it's just nice to hear if you haven't, like they're actually making that notion of you seem like a new face, like you're welcome here.

Please come back. Whereas I find in bigger churches, you just, you get lost. So unless you're already in that clique. Which would be happening if you're part of a well produced sort of environment. You just get lost and you fade into the background. And unless you already know people up there or have friends, that's just not going to be somewhere you thrive.

So that doesn't surprise me from my experience, but it probably would surprise most of our members, but I love. I love that she had that experience. And she kept looking cause that's the other thing. Like I didn't really feel that connection. And sometimes you don't and having that. Prompt, whether that's like the Holy Spirit or whatever it is to just, there's something, there's somewhere better out there yeah.

Just going back to handing over the keys, opening doors, making opportunities and stuff. I think that's really important because I don't think I think you touched on it, but unless we do that intentionally, it's very, when you said the phrase giving up power or pushing off power we tend to talk ourselves out of the fact that we even have power as Christians.

We like, we're uncomfortable with the idea that we are proud or powerful or, and so we almost are in denial in some ways we're involved at a church. We have social connection. We have power in that. In that circle. And so I think it's good to name, to define that what we mean by power and what we mean by control of a thing that we're letting go of, it doesn't mean that we're a controlling person or that we're trying to, Lord it over other people where dictators in our spaces, we're actually, all it means is we're better connected.

We're more mature in the faith. And so we have an opportunity to hand over some of that influence and connection. We, with someone else. And I like, That sort of connects to what we were just saying about maybe phoning ahead. Hey, a young person's going somewhere, connect them with someone, I know a lot more people around Australia since leaving my home church.

And if I'm, going somewhere or a young person, I find out they're going somewhere, maybe I know, a minister or an elder at that church. Maybe I know a friend who I used to go to college with and goes to that church. So I can actually be a bridge that helps. And it's like that thing that we always say about Jesus, he didn't consider equality with God, something to be held onto, but he released himself.

He acted as a servant, he lowered himself to our level. And I think, are there other ways? Apart from giving them that role, how do you think it might be effective to mentor someone, into a new space? Have you seen that you mentioned yourself that you've been involved with teen ministries and with women's ministries, you had a role as a volunteer there and someone spotted you and, but what were more opportunities that we given you know, so we can see that play out practically?

Underneath teams or within teams alongside people that just helped to mentor you into that space that meant, Hey you made the decision. Hey, I want to come back and be part of this.

Yeah, I think Something important to note with what you just said too, is you don't have to have a position of power as such of you don't have to be on a board.

You don't have to be part of the eldership, like the elders team. You can just be an everyday member of the church. But there's that concept we talk about. I don't remember who it came from, if it's like a Peter Rowan felt thing or like somewhere else, but like finding people of peace and like finding those influential leaders who aren't necessarily.

leaders in how we would say it, but those people who have those connections and even have that drive to just sit down with someone and be like, where are you moving? Okay. Can, what are the churches in your area? Let's call that pastor and see if cause information should be on the website. Or at the conference and just like taking that extra step.

But coming back to your thing about mentorship I haven't executed it really well yet in the, imagine like in the teens space, we've tried like a couple of teen committees. I think it's actually getting better now that we're just. I'm focusing on a smaller group and trying to figure out exactly what they want to do and how can I link them up with somebody else in that area.

That's something I love doing, it's like gathering people but also connecting them on to other people and helping them grow in whatever their interest space is. For me, but though personally when I came into So going back to women's ministries that was my first space to serve since probably really ever.

Cause I left the church around 13, so you don't do a whole lot at 13 and went in and out of Pathfinders. And so like I came into the conference and she just spent that time with me for, I don't know how long it was. It could have been like eight months just getting to know me and that's not necessarily part of.

Beryl's nature as much as I love her. She is not the most patient of women. And so like her, that was definitely like a Holy Spirit thing is are we listening to those prompts as well? Are we going in without a self serving agenda? She wanted me to serve on her team, but she waited until she was given an opportunity where I was ready.

If she'd asked me the first time we sat down. I don't think I would have agreed to it. Later, I, we knew each other, we had a relationship, she actually knew things about me personally, that meant that I trusted her. So when she asked me to join, and of course she needed like tech help, and social media help, and all of this, I did, and I did.

All of that for free. And you didn't have to convince me. I wanted to do it. And I became like her unofficial assistant for the next six years. She really got not her money's worth because she didn't pay me, but she really got a good deal in there, but then. After about a year of just serving on her advisory and just being in all the events and like I had a real knack for event coordinating.

So eventually she put all the younger ones on her team in the Imagine space and we were doing just the same. It was called Bride Wore White or whatever event it was for the year and she'd tell us to lead it. And so because of the natural ability, I'd been following her running her events and doing the programs and all of that sort of stuff.

She allowed me to run a brie Program coordinated a big breathe program, which is like 500 people. I think I was like 20 and so I didn't even dawn on me at the time, but it does now what a big event and responsibility that was that she trusted me with. And so it was like a day program and I executed like timing, like program coordination.

So like getting everybody up and down, making sure things are all in the right space. And after I could do that, she then basically gave me the next event, which was for the teens. And I ran it start to finish from the beginning idea to getting all the volunteers together to all the way through. And that was the first one I ever did.

And I was, yeah, again, probably 2021. And I think she saw that progression and. Was testing things as I went, but I only see that now looking back. Cause at the time it was just like, wow, she's given me such a big opportunity and responsibility. Like I'm going to take this and I'm going to do the best that I can with it.

Because. That had never been offered to me before, and I had such a passion for it that I turned it into a bigger ministry and it went from there. So I don't think she knew that's what was going to happen, but she was gradually listening and prompting and growing me in ways I didn't even realize at the time.

It's sorry, Zanita, just to jump in, just to reflect on what Shaley's just said. It's, it's amazing to me to see that, we often complain about the lack of capacity we have as a church to get things done. But what you've just explained that scenario you've just described has led to multiplication like of leadership.

So Beryl's still involved, she's still someone women's ministries is still going, but now we have this teens ministries and we have a leader equipped to make it happen. And then it's that wouldn't have happened. Without some intentional mentoring and the process that you've described.

So it's fascinating that, that multiplication happens alongside of mentorship, which is what we want to see as a church. So I just wanted to reflect on that and just bring that out. It's amazing to see that sort of thing. Sorry, Zanita, go ahead.

It's all right. I was going to say the same thing.

It sounds, the word that's coming to mind for me is empower. It sounds like she's really empowered you to do something. Empower. I think that's really big and important that you might have put yourself in that position to do without her. So I think that's really cool. But just to wrap up when we're thinking about investing in young people, whether it's, I don't want to say to keep them in the church, but to help them in their relationships with God and to help them know God and want to have a relationship with him.

We're often talking to adults who, Already have kids or adults who are probably focusing on their careers. And realistically, like probably everyone is short on time. Like it's just the reality of the society we're dealing with. And so I guess just to end, you've already given us really good practical advice, but is there any other advice that you would give that isn't like.

You know, you don't have to have someone alongside you every day of the week, but what are some like small things that we can be doing that you can just leave our listeners with that they can be just keeping in mind to do every now and then with young people?

Yeah. I loved what you just said in that it's not about keeping them in the church.

It's about keeping them in a relationship with Jesus. And that is like where we come from. Through everything we try to do with imagine is like, I don't really care if you know the fundamentals, I care if you know Jesus and if you cause that's where you start and usually that starts with teens with the loving relationship with somebody older than them.

So whether that's family, whether that's like a church community, wherever that person is, you are the one presenting Jesus before they go study their Bible before they go and learn. Cause that comes with age as you grow. Something that when we've done focus groups and stuff, they've commented on is it was always a relationship.

Yeah. So it's not about how good the Bible study was. People don't really remember that content five years down. They remember the feeling they had when somebody sat with them every week and just, Wanted to be there and listen to them and help them understand. And that's the important part is you actually take the time to to just be there, to do those things.

Like we mentioned about just learn their name say hi to them every time they come in. If you don't see them for a week or two, message them, go around and see them. Actually, if there was a story that I briefly mentioned before where an older man in the church just started to go to this young boy's I think it was like a footy game every Sunday.

And they developed this beautiful relationship over time. And that was the only interaction they ever had, was him going to this footy game. But that was such an, like a pivotal thing in that young boy's life. So it's like little things like that, where, how can you. Fit that into your week or into your month or into something where you're consistent.

Cause that's probably the biggest thing there is consistency with young people. They need to keep seeing you keep hearing a message. It's not going to stick just one time.

We've fast run out of time, but it's been an awesome conversation today. Shelley, thank you for prompting us on some of these matters. And as we've. Said, yeah, we want our young people from myself. Now, as a parent, I want to see my young people have a relationship with God. And I want other people in the church to care about my kids as they growing up.

Some good food for thought for us. And this week, let's get alongside like young people, a young person. If we have, a chance whether they're related to us or not and try and pour into them and give them some opportunities. And if we can't, we can still pray for them. If we don't meet face to face this week it's very important for us to pray for young people in our churches and for God's leading in their lives.

All right, ladies, thank you for joining us today. It's been another fantastic conversation and we'll see you again next week on record live. God bless.

📍 Thank you guys. Bye. Bye.