Record Live Podcast

Ordinary women who changed the world
Intro: [00:00:00] Hi there everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Sunita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church faith and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we'd put into practice. Let's go live.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Well welcome everyone to record live. It is, , just fantastic to be with you again. , It's exciting time of the week, Zita, and I really love doing this and getting to talk to interesting people. And today we are blessed to speak with Su g. Did I get that right?
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: Close enough.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I tried. I tried my [00:01:00] best, otherwise known as Suki.
Suki use so much. Thank you so much for joining us, , today. Now, you have been on before, but you've done something. Last time we talked about your book, and this time you've written another book, in fact, a third book in the series, and we are gonna talk a little bit about that today. It's called , like a Mighty Stream.
, , this book, and it covers stories of just in a nutshell, women from the Reformation. Now. You've done other stories of women in the Reformation and yet it needed a third book. Can you tell us why, , why is there so much good stuff in this time period,, in this, , focus area of yours?
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: Well, I feel like most periods of history have great stories. But I like to focus on this period of history because I feel like there are so many relevant [00:02:00] themes, , during this period that we can relate to today. , I like writing about women because I'm a woman and I feel like,, when you look at history, , you see that history has traditionally been written by men, for men and about men.
And in the last few decades there's been a lot more scholarship about women and I feel like we need to be able to tell those stories because 50% of the population, , is female. And so I think it's really important to be able to tell women's stories, , and to tell them from a female perspective as well.
So that's one of one of the main reasons why I like telling stories about women and you know, just the themes during the reformation, religious liberty, courage, commitment, conviction, all those things are relevant in our world today. So. Yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm. Yeah. You [00:03:00] mentioned obviously that a lot of history was written by men and you know, we look at a lot of men in history, Yes.
That kind of stand out over time. How have you found these stories of women then? Because obviously they're not super public, like I, I don't know many of these women. How did you kind of come across them or what's been your journey of uncovering and finding these stories?
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: I think, you know, way back when I did my first book five years ago, I did a lot of research into women because I was writing about women at that time.
Just for a month, we're going to do a,, women's history month. And as I was writing, I found a lot of source material that were written by 19th century male biographers. And there were just these thick books, you know, in like Victorian English. And you think about how many people are actually going to dig into a 19th century Victorian book to read about these women.
Not many, right? And so I remember at that time thinking, I want to tell more of [00:04:00] these stories. But what I found is, , there in recent years there has been a lot more scholarship on these women by women. Which has been amazing, you know, so,, I found these books, they're like really old. But then when I took these names and I did a little bit of research on them, a lot of books and like scholarly and academic articles started popping up about these women, , that were written really in the last decade.
And I thought, this is so cool. 'cause now we've got a lot more information and it's more nuanced. It's more three dimensional than these 19th century biographers. And it's really cool that , the scholarship is by women. So you get, a, just a different feel for it. And so that's been my journey really.
Hmm.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And , you're covering in these books, women from the Reformation period, do you want to tell us a little bit about the Reformation? Some of our listeners and viewers, many of them may be familiar with it, but in your words, why is it [00:05:00] significant and how has it shaped the world that we are live in today?
Okay,
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: so the Reformation was really a period of time during the early 16th century when, , Martin Luther and others like him decided that they were going to protest against, the established church. , And especially. Doctrinal issues within the established church. Now, by that time, Martin Luther famously nailed his 95 thesis, , in Wittenberg in 1517.
And by that time, Europe, Western Europe had only a single church for about a millennium. You know, some scholars say that, , the Roman church was the only stable pillar of European society for a thousand years. And so people were really steeped in this, their, it, it generationally affected their thinking, their lives, you know, , some historians .
In Britain, in England, for example, talk about how [00:06:00] church ritual, , and church feasts and church festivals didn't just govern people's life religiously, but seasonally, the, the seasonal plowing and sowing was the calendar. The Farmer's Almanac, if you will, was, , based around church ritual. And so it was so ingrained in people's lives, but so much of it was really damaging because the church at the time painted this picture of an angry God who was vengeful, and people needed to do all these things to earn salvation.
Otherwise, they would either burn in purgatory or burn in. And you know, you're talking about a time when mortality rates were really high, children died very young, and then, you know, you're a parent and you're thinking, if my child isn't baptized in the church, this child is going to burn hell.
So it was just really a traumatic worldview that people had lived with from millennia. And so the reformation comes along and they're championing some [00:07:00] really important things. They're championing salvation by faith in Christ. They're championing the importance of scripture.
But above all, they're championing this idea of the individual and their accountability to God rather than an individual going through the establishment to God. And you know, some scholars talk about how the Reformation really led to a lot of the ideas we have about modern democracy. You know, this idea that the individual, the, the people have more of a say about governance, about, , social change than the establishment, so to speak.
But also another thing that I think is really important to talk about, that the reformation started and kind of progressed. Is this idea of the separation of church and state. And you see, at this period of time, you know, there was this idea of Christendom, which was really the unification of church and state and the importance of, you know, the papacy and or the Roman church really governing also in the.
The [00:08:00] political and social realm and the reformation kind of separated that, pointed out the importance of, you know, how church and state need to be separate people have the right to a free conscience. And I think that's one of the most important things that the Reformation also gave us, , because.
That's really important. Freedom of conscience, religious liberty, the separation of church and state. And so that's a little bit about the reformation and how it impacted modern society. Yeah, I mean, eventually the reformation led to, , the Birth of America and you know, because the pilgrims were going to America looking for religious liberty and the separation of church and state.
So yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm. You mentioned, , that they believed that they believed in like an angry God who was quite eventual and obviously people's views of God change, how they changes, how they treat people and how they react themselves. So what was kind of like the side effects of that and how were maybe not just women, but even men, men during the reformation, countering that and changing that view?[00:09:00]
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: I think. One thing that the Reformation did was present, , a God who, you know, the, the reformation, I like to think kind of,, moved the needle. Okay. So when, when it started, God is angry. , And then you had, you know, in the early period of the Reformation, you had a man named Erasmus. He was, you know, Catholic priest, not really interested in reformation, but he translated the existing Bible 'cause the existing authorized church Bible, the Vulgate was translated in the fourth century.
That hadn't been another translation since it was in Latin. And it such overtly and subtlely both, , kind of. Propagated the church's view. So for example, you know that famous passage where Jesus says Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. , the Vulgate read do penance.
Now that's a significant difference, right? Doing penance is an external thing. Repentance is an internal change. And so Erasmus comes along and , he [00:10:00] finds that there's discrepancies. He go back, goes back to the original sources. And he translates a new version of the Bible, not from the Vulgate but from the original sources.
And what Erasmus is doing is moving the needle from God is angry to God is accessible, God is accessible, he's in his word. And then of course Luther, you know, the Reformation, every movement of the reformation in each country, including Luther and Germany was Spock because Luther and others read Erasmus translation of the Bible in Romans, and they realized, oh, you know.
Religion. Salvation is an internal change that is affected by the spirit of God as a response. That we have to, to a god of love. And and so then the move the needle changed , to God is love eventually. And so I think that changed. It confused people for a little bit. 'cause for a long time they had lived under oppression.
So it confused them. , There was rioting, there was looting, there was this sense of we're free now. , But I think beyond [00:11:00] that, there was also just, you know, you read letters like one of the early reformers in England, Thomas bill me when he read Erasmus Bible. , And he realized, you know, he came to first Timothy one 15 and it said, Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners of whom I'm chief.
And he later wrote my bruised bones leaped for joy. You know, it just. Just , the relief of feeling like. God is not against me, God is for me, that really , made a difference. Mm.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It sounds like, , from the research that you've done and , the reading that there is. Potentially space to still do more in that space.
Write in that style . Tell us why you've chosen to do a more narrative form of a more storytelling. You know, these books are very accessible. , They're not sort of intellectual or, or academic, I should say, , in terms of style. You know, there's intellect behind them, but it's not an [00:12:00] academic work.
Why have you chosen to go narrative storytelling? , To tell these women's stories rather than, it sounds like there's still holes in scholarship in those spaces that you could have gone in that direction. Yes. But you've chosen to, to go with stories.
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: Yeah. I think part of it is just me, because I like telling stories and that's my background.
So whenever I read something or I see something, the first thing I see is, I mean, 'cause my background's in theater. So I think, you know, back in the day when I was in theater, if I read something like this, the first thing I can. First thing I think about is how would this look on a stage? , How would this look as a story?
So that's just the way my brain works when I read something and I think, oh, this would make a really good story. So that just, that just pops into my mind. But the other reason that I deliberately went in this direction is because I feel like people in general might be hesitant to read an academic book, you know?
People, it's not that nobody would read it, but not as many people would read it. , I wanted [00:13:00] to make these stories accessible. , And I wanted to humanize these women, these people. Often when we look at history, , we think about it in fact, you know, in terms of facts and figures and, you know, we we're sort of removed from it emotionally.
And I felt like it's really important to be able to bring back that emotional dimension because when you emotionally invest in someone or something, you are better able to relate to them and then learn from them. And I think ultimately history, you know, why do we access history to learn from the past, right?
And so I feel like the best way that we can learn from the past is past, is to be able to access the past on a level that we can relate to as human beings. Yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, absolutely. There's so much we can learn from history. , I guess speaking on that, you've chosen to write about women who, trace quite far back in history, but you're obviously speaking to women today, or I'm assuming most of the people who read this book are women. I don't actually know, [00:14:00] but, , why is that?
Do you see parallels between the struggles that the women face then and the struggles that women are facing today and is there some kind of like. Thing you wanna encourage women of today to kind of like step into or live up to?
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: Mm, I think two things. The first reason that I, , focused on the Reformation is, , the history is great, but also I, I, one of my favorite books is great controversy.
In the introduction to the Great Controversy because most of the great controversy deals with the history of the church and the introduction to the great controversy. The author makes a really interesting point. She says, , the reason that history is such a big, I'm paraphrasing obviously, , the reason that history is such a big part of this book is not, not just to recount it, but to learn from it for the future.
And so I thought that's really important. You know, there's so much we can learn from this period of time. And , so a lot of it has to do with wanting to go back and learn from that period of time, women, [00:15:00] because, yeah, I do feel like a lot of, we clearly women in this day and age, we don't have to go through the same, , level of.
Marginalization that those women went through. They couldn't go to university. They were just, in a lot of cases, they were just considered, you know, they only had three roles to play. Wife, mother, or daughter, , maybe sister, but really it was just wife, mother, or daughter. And so we have a lot more options as women today, but I just still feel like.
We have a lot to learn from them in terms of their faith, their resilience, their courage, because we still face challenges, right? As women, , , and beyond, just as women. I think just as people in general, you know, , we face challenges, we face struggles. We live in a world that's difficult. And so how do you face these obstacles as a person of faith?
Yeah.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Yeah, and certainly I haven't read the third book, I haven't had [00:16:00] the time to get through it, but as a man, I read the first book and was very moved by the stories in there, like they are universal in yes, it's good to see women championed , and a woman author championing those women that.
Haven't had their stories told. I guess , that's what I've been hearing you say they're not well known. They're not, , their histories aren't sort of that spread and yet. I resonated with the faith that they demonstrated and , the, , conviction, I think is the word for me, like their conviction shone through, against persecution, against family members being killed or getting thrown in jail.
Those sort of things were happening to some of these women, and yet they still stuck it out. Yes. Can you give us, without giving away, you know, the whole plot of all the different stories, is there one that stood out to you, from this book? I know parents aren't supposed to have favorite [00:17:00] children, , and your chapters, your characters might be, you know, but is there a favorite woman or a favorite story that you got to tell as part of this project that, , perhaps has impacted your life , or taught you something in some way that you can really relate to?
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: Hmm. That's a good question. I think in terms of not so much. Well, yeah, I don't know if I have like a favorite from, I enjoyed all of them. Hey. But I really like the story of Margarita Proce. , , , she was the first female printer of the Reformation. And , I thought that was just really cool because she was.
Born into a, master printers family. Her dad was a printer. And her brother was a printer. And as a woman, she had no way of inheriting that press or having a career or anything. But she loved it. And it turned out that her dad left her the printing press, not her, but she married a printer. , But she had more [00:18:00] experience than her husband.
And so behind the scenes she ran this press and she. Published, she's credited with publishing a lot of Protestant literature, , even Anabaptist literature, which at that time was nuts. You know, everybody hated the Anabaptist, like Protestants, Catholics, everybody hated the Anabaptist. But she published Anabaptist literature, and I love her story because , she couldn't be a master printer in her own right because , she was from Strasburg, which was a free imperial city.
And only citizens of Strasberg could be part of the guilds, right? So you had to be part of the guild to be, , to work in a craft. Women were not recognized as citizens, so she couldn't, she couldn't, but she found a way to, despite her restricted circumstances, she found a way to do what she loved.
And I love that. You know, I love that , she just. Just overcame her circumstances. She [00:19:00] found a way to do what she loved and she found a way to make such a massive difference doing it. And I think for me sometimes it's easy to look at our limitations. But I think Marri Deru reminds me that where there is a will, there is a way.
She's just looked beyond her limitations and , she ran that printing press, . She went through three husbands. Three of her husbands died. , But she was like, she kept that printing press running and it changed people's lives. And so I think that's really inspiring to me. , Like as a mother, sometimes wife and mom and I homeschool my kids and I've got all these responsibilities and sometimes I'm like, I don't have time, but then I think I really wanna do this, you know?
And so people like Margarita first remind me there's a way to do it. There's a way to be able to do things and make a difference in people's lives. Mm-hmm.
Zanita Fletcher: That's awesome. I'd love to know a little more Suki about, like, are there any other characters that have really challenged you in your [00:20:00] day-to-day life?
Like after reading all these about all these faithful, courageous women, how has it Yeah. Impacted your day-to-day life?
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: I think another one that I really like from the book is, , Elizabeth Cruciger, and she was gifted to a convent at the age of five, and she was artistically gifted. Like she, she was a song.
She was the first female hymn writer of the Reformation. And, , she would've, you know, I, from the research, I, I draw a few conclusions in convents and monasteries. At the time, everything, you know, was scheduled around the hours of prayer. The canonical hours of prayer and the canonical hours of prayer were very musical.
'cause liturgy was a massive part of worship. So she would've been exposed to music from a very young age, you know, 'cause she was in this convent. And then to be able to use, . What she would've learned growing up. And then to take that into, , to then when , she ran away from the [00:21:00] convent. She goes to Wittenberg and Martin Luther confronts her and says to her, he realizes that she has this gift as a, as a hymn writer.
And so he says to her, you need to write a hymn for my hymnal, because Martin Luther believed that hymns were as effective in spreading the gospel as sermons. For me personally, how that affects me is I'm a writer. I tell stories. And sometimes it, you can think that storytelling is not as effective in spreading the gospel or it's not as effective as sharing a sermon or, but when I think about Elizabeth Cruciger and like how the mindset that they had, you know, during the revelation, Luther's like singing a hymn is on par with preaching a sermon.
I'm like. It was a place for creative people in the reformation like 500 years ago, and those creative people were using their creative gifts to share the gospel. And so I love that 'cause I'm like, there's a place for people like me and , that really inspires me. Yeah.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Something [00:22:00] you've done this time Suki, that you haven't done with the other books, or at least I'm not aware, is you've got a radio, , program that accompanies this. , I'll put the link up in the comments so people can see sort of where to access that. , It's through our faith fm, our church affiliated radio station here in Australia.
, But do you just wanna tell us a little bit about that? Project. Like what? Yeah, what does the audio element sort of add? Do people, should they read the book and listen to the programs ? What, what, what's the radio show? All of that. That
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: was, it was, so I, the book was in the works and,, it wasn't published.
It was, it was in final editing. And, , faith of them reached out to me and said, Hey. , We'd really like you to do a program for us on the Reformation. And, , I, I said, oh, well, , I'd like to do stories. I'm not going to, I, I prefer to do stories rather than to do something that's theological or academic.
And they said, yeah, that's fine. You can do whatever you want. And then [00:23:00] they said, well, part of doing a radio program is you need to have something to give people a giveaway. So then I, I said to them, oh, well, you know, I have a book coming out. And, , it so happens that there's like 20 short stories in it.
And, and so then I worked with, you know, talked to the people at Signs and we came up with this idea, why not just base this new program on your book and then each chapter can be one of the giveaways for the episodes. And so that's kind of how it happened. And so what I do is you need to read the book.
And listen to the series because they're slightly different. Because there's elements in the stories that I, that, that are in addition to the book, , so there's some historical background there. There's a different facet of that time period or that person, but it ties in , with the book, with the stories in the book.
So kind of kinda just happened and it's cool. I, it's something that , I've been enjoying doing. Yeah.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's great. And I [00:24:00] think some people, not everyone's a reader, , I think they should be, but I'm biased. But some people may be able to access this information, these stories, I guess, through the radio programs where, they may not through the book.
, And it's really great to see that synergy across, , different media products. Sorry, Zita, I think you were gonna say something.
Zanita Fletcher: All good. You've,, this is obviously your third book that you've written, and most of 'em have been,, about women. Do you have another book in the pipelines about more women from the reformation, or is there another part of history that you are excited to research or would love to research one day?
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: Well, I do wanna keep writing. , I, I feel like I. Because I've done three books on the Reformation. Now , I'm thinking should I take a break from it? Recently, I've been doing some research into the early church. You know, I've been reading through the book The Great Controversy again. And, , looking at, you know, I was reading through the , the Disturb of the Destruction of Jerusalem, , looking at,, the early Celtic Church in England.
And [00:25:00] also toying with the idea of should I write something for younger readers, you know, right now. My books. I mean, honestly, I have young readers read, I have kids as young as 10 reading my books. And then I've got, , you know, , elderly people as old as 80, reading my books and everybody in the middle, which is great, you know?
, But the, the demographic that I wrote the book for was like 18 , and up, , 16 maybe, and up. But, so I'm actually toying with the idea of doing a book for like. 10 to 12, 12 plus, you know, that, mid middle grade or young, young adult reader, that teen reader segment, , or even younger than that, and looking at the early church.
So then those stories would have a decidedly more fictional element because there's not a lot of information on individuals, but that would focus more on the time period and what we learn about. Being a Christian in that time period. So yeah, that's where my head is at. I don't know, but that's where I'm kind of drawn to at the moment, you know?
, Yeah. [00:26:00]
Jarrod Stackelroth: Very cool. Now, if you are listening along and you're interested in getting Suzuki's book, we have a discount for you. We have a 10% discount and we're gonna share that code at the end of the program. We're almost finished, but before we do Suki on record live, we'd love to get practical with our faith.
So is there a takeaway thing that you think we can,. Learn just in general, , maybe it's something that's come out of our conversation today. Maybe it's something you've learned re , writing and researching your books. What is something that you think we all need to incorporate maybe more into our faith practice, into, our church life
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: from
Jarrod Stackelroth: day to day?
Day-to-day?
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: I think it's really important for us to personally be studying scripture. Because that's what the Reformation did. It challenged people to study the Bible for themselves and cultivate, not cultivate an intellectual understanding of scripture, though they did that, but it was cultivate a relationship with Jesus.[00:27:00]
And I think that's really important. You know, . When we look at the world around us, and when I look at the world around us, I really believe that Jesus is coming soon. And I think that when we think about,, , what it means to be ready, it's really isn't so much what we know as how we take what we know and then channel that into how we get to know Jesus better.
And so I feel like being in scripture and using our time in scripture to then cultivate a relationship with Jesus is really, it's vital. It's really vital because the more we get to know Jesus, the more we will be like him. And I think that's the key, right? It's not how much we know, but how much we reflect of Christ's character that matters.
And so we need to be in scripture and allowing that to change us.
Zanita Fletcher: So good. Well, thank you so much, Suki. I've had some technical problems, so your face has been frozen most of this time, but I've heard everything you're saying and yeah, have flipped through your book and it's awesome. So yeah, really encourage anyone to go out there. I think it's. It's [00:28:00] on everywhere you find books.
But , Jared can show the cover again if you wanna see what it's called. But , thank you so much Suki for coming on. It's been great to have you on again talking about Yeah, these awesome women.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , Adventist book center. Is the best place to get it. And if you go to the Adventist book center and you use the code as you're checking out, use the code record live, one word that's record live, you get a 10% discount on Susie's book.
So. We encourage you to do that, and then you can read some of these inspiring stories for yourself. Suki, thank you so much for writing, for using your gifts and talents in this way. , Thank you for joining us today and sharing some of those stories. And yeah, we pray that God uses the book. In a mighty way to perhaps inspire people in their own faith journey.
The radio program, everything associated that, , people are moved to do something and ultimately, as you summed up, to become more like Jesus through these projects. [00:29:00] So thank you for your, yeah, for your sharing today.
Sukeshinie Goonatileke: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Until next week, . God bless, and we'll see you again soon.