Record Live Podcast

  Hi there, everyone. I'm Jarrod. And I'm Zanita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church, faith, and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus, faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we put into practice. Let's go live.

 Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another week of Record Live, and welcome back, Juliana, our new regular face on the show.

Thank you. It's so good to be back.

Now, this is gonna be our last episode of Record Live for a little while. We are not sure exactly what's gonna come of it in the near future, but we're gonna be taking a little hiatus, a little break, as we kind of figure things out.

But you will not be without spiritual podcasts. We have the Living Covenant podcast going up on Mondays, which is about individuals in the Old Testament. So if you're looking for something spiritual to listen to throughout the week, you can go there.

But Juliana, you also have a podcast that you run for Record. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about that?

Yes. So we also have a news podcast, which I produce weekly, or when, yes, we have time. But yeah, mostly- ... uh, mostly, we publish episodes every Thursday or Friday. And we just, yeah, go about some of the main news of the week, and feature some audio interviews there as well.

So yeah, that's another option to stay informed if you don't have time to read all the news stories on our website or the print magazine.

Yeah. And what is it called? For people who have missed all the memos.

Sorry. It's called- ...

Record Wrap. Record Wrap.

Yeah.

Yeah. Go give it a follow. It's shorter form kind of episode, which some people really dig these days, 'cause it's, what they can take in, so- Yes ... yeah, definitely. Check it out. Short

attention spans.

Awesome. Today we are listening to an interview that I did at South Pacific for Christ with Gary Krause, the director of Adventist Mission.

But before we get into that, I kinda asked this question last week on Record Live, that if anyone had any, creative mission initiatives that they'd either been a part of or heard of or been inspired by, to share them. But I wanted to ask you that question today, Juliana, because this is kinda what we're talking about with Gary, is, mission in cities, creative mission ideas.

What's a mission initiative that you've either been a part of or seen and thought, "Hey, that's really cool"?

I think in terms of mission trips, I've been part of one to the Middle East. That was actually very impactful in my life, and it's actually why I ended up coming overseas to serve the church in a different country.

Um, yeah, but just the whole experience there, seeing, how the church was actually meeting the needs of refugee people coming from Syria. And meeting their needs because they were allowed in that country as refugees, but they were not allowed to work or to study. And so the church was providing, like, through centers of influence, was providing education and some help as well to them.

And so that was very inspiring to see, and see, you know, we have so much abundance where we live and in our daily lives, and then to see people just having to leave everything behind to start- Mm-hmm ... from scratch and without being able to work and study. And so it was just nice seeing how much also open they turn to the word of God and those things.

And so that was nice. But in a non-mission trip context, I think one of the mission initiatives that really, yeah, stuck with me was one of the stories I had to share I think it was the first story I had to share as a journalist for the church as a TV story. It was about this lady in Brazil in the countryside.

She was part of a very small church, and she noticed that there was a neighbor, community, like a neighbor suburb where they were all very low income families and struggling financially. And so she decided to start baking bread every Friday, so she would deliver it to the communities with Bible studies and Bible verses and just print materials from the church.

And I went there and interviewed some of those people that were receiving bread regularly, and they were so incredibly thankful for having that extra help for- Mm ... to feed their families, but also, they were glad to have some hope through the literature they were receiving. And, you know, she was sharing the word of God, but also meeting their needs, like their physical needs, and that was really nice to see.

Hmm. That's awesome. Yeah, I think there's so many creative things, and we definitely heard about some of those at South Pacific Craft and, Gary- Mm ... will talk about some of those too. But I think, one that comes to mind recently, and I think this was actually mentioned at South Pacific Craft, is in the United States, I don't know if it was in New York or LA, one of those big cities, someone started up a cafe called Chapel Cafe.

And it's just like a normal coffee shop where people can kind of come and hang, but it was, known that this cafe offered prayer. So it was, a less intimidating environment than, a church or a chapel. It was just, like, a place where people would come and get coffee kind of every day, and if they happened to have something that they wanted prayer about, it was, a very easy kind of connection point, a very- Hmm

like, non-intimidating connection point. So I thought that was really cool, to hear about as well. You live kind of around the Newcastle region, I'm gonna say. That's probably your closest city?

Yeah.

Yeah. What do you find are some of the barriers when it comes to mission in cities?

I think people are... Because I don't live in the city exactly, so I live, like, in the suburbs. I think at, especially where we are, just reaching people in general, like being able to have contact with them, I think it's a challenge. Take me, for example, I have a smart doorbell and if I see a random person coming to knock on my door I'm probably gonna look on my app and s- just say, "Uh, I don't know them", you know?

Just, just let them knock and then go their way. Mm-hmm. And so I think those are some of the challenges as well. I think it should be a bit easier than people actually living in the cities like Sydney, for example. I think that- Yeah ... should

be

quite challenging to reach people. Um- Mm-hmm ... but yeah, I think...

And also, this is particular to the area I live, there are a lot of Adventists around me because I live- Yeah ... near Kurrabong.

Yeah, I think, I think I've also noticed this, it's like people, they have less time and as a result their circles kind of get smaller. So sometimes there's, less openness for, new connections.

But yeah, I guess it's kind of ironic because so many people are still very lonely- Yes ... in this world.

But don't know why. There is, there is a lot of loneliness, but, like, people crave connection, but at the same time they don't really want it. Um- Mm-hmm ... and I don't know if it's something that we're doing to ourselves or if s- I don't know, technology and society is doing to ourselves, but to us.

But if you go to the shops today, like just to the supermarket, you'll see people with a trolley full of groceries and they will choose to go to the self-checkout ... when they could actually get someone to assist them. But some people just want to avoid that interaction, like to get the cashier to be nice to you and talk to you.

Um- Mm ... and so I feel like with the automated day-to-day life that we have today, people are just losing the ability to interact with each other, I think.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I would agree with that. I know one thing, a church did- here on the Gold Coast recently is they realize that the Gold Coast is a place where, it's attracting more and more wealthy people.

And so rent is becoming more expensive, and as a result, people are having to work more. And so they're obviously more busy and are doing usually, like, side hustles as well as their full-time job, as well as, you know, trying to tend to their family and their partners and so on. So this church decided, okay, we recognize that as a result of both parents having to work full time, that they're getting less time together.

And so they created, like a date night for couples where they would look after their kids one night a week, like a whole bunch of them, and then they would, like, plan something for couples in the local area. And I thought that was a really cool thing- Yeah ... 'cause it's like,

so often people don't have someone to look after their kids. they don't have the option- Yes ... of a babysitter, especially when they live away from family and things, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was another creative kind of mission initiative. But again, if anyone's watching, listening, would love to hear what things you've been a part of or seen, that have inspired you.

But without further ado, I think we will

pass it on to Gary Krause, the director of Adventist Mission.

 We are here at South Pacific for Christ, where there's been a focus on rethinking what mission looks like. Today, I'm here with Gary Krause, Associate Secretary of the General Conference and Director of Adventist Mission. Thank you for joining us today. Pleasure. Now, as the Director of Adventist Mission, I assume that mission is something that you think about constantly.

But I would love to know, can you remember when mission became personal to you or when it changed from an idea to something that you really cared about? I guess when I was a kid, I used to sit on the edge of my seat at camp meetings as I listened to some of the missionaries, such as Pastor Lynn Barnard and Pastor Colin Winch, and they used to tell stories of their experiences in Papua New Guinea and the Solomons, et cetera.

And I just loved to listen to those stories. And because I was born in Fiji to missionary parents, I always had that awareness. Mm. And I can remember having my Fijian passport as a kid. Mm. And I wanted to keep that passport because I thought maybe sometime in the future, Fiji may be closed to missionaries, and I'd be ready to go in because I had a Fi- I had a Fijian passport.

So those were the some of the early memories. And of course, we used to listen to mission stories. There was Eric B. Hare on the, the, I guess, the records back then we would listen to. So I guess it was ingested. It was part of my DNA. Mm. And growing up, of course, for breakfast, we would only have Sanitarian products on our table.

It was like apostasy or moving into some level of sin to have Kellogg's or any other product because- Mm ... Sanitarian supported mission. Ah. So that was the connection. Yeah. So it goes way back for you. Goes way back. Well, decades- ... before you were born. Yeah. Awesome. Something that you kind of focus on at the moment is mission within cities, and earlier today we had a presentation on that.

And I guess I'm just curious to know why have cities become such a focus when it comes to mission? I work for the Office of Adventist Mission, as you said, and one of the main areas we care for is global mission, which is church planting in unreached areas. And the global mission, global mission was voted in 1990, and there was a document that gave birth to this.

It was called the Global Strategy document. And in that Global Strategy document, it outlined the mission challenges the Seventh-day Adventist Church was facing back- 30-something years ago. And church leaders came together, they prayed together, they planned together. And in that document, it mentioned one of the major challenges was the cities.

Hmm. Well, since then, the urban demographics have changed, and now more people are living in cities than in rural areas. Which is a bit of a challenge for the Adventist Church, because we've tended to grow fastest and biggest on islands and in rural areas. Hmm. And historically, we are a country living, loving church.

And so focusing on urban mission hasn't been a natural step for us as Adventists. Hmm. So more recently, we've started talking about three mission refocus challenge windows. One is the 10/40 Window, the other one is the Secular and Post-Christian Window, and the third one is the Urban Window, and that's the biggest one.

So because that's where most people live, that's our new mission field. Makes sense. So as we were wrestling with that, I actually did my PhD thesis right here in Queensland at Queensland University, looking at a concept of centers of influence, which Ellen White talked about. Hmm.

That generated more interest from me studying how in our history we actually did have a very strong focus on cities. And Ellen White was very prominent, particularly in the last years of her life, pushing for we need to be in the cities. We need to be working in the cities. And this was a little bit of a disconnect for me because growing up Adventist, I'd always heard the benefits of country living.

But so there's a tension there within the church. Yeah. So we're just making it a priority. So when we look at the funding that we give for global mission projects, church planting projects, then we are focusing on those three windows. So the urban window, it's expensive. Mission in cities is expensive.

Yeah. So that's for me. A- a- and I guess, some years ago, there was a church up in Manhattan in New York, and they contacted me because they wanted to start a vegetarian cafe. And I said to them, "You've got to be careful, you know, starting up a business. It, it's not as easy as it sounds." Mm-hmm. "And so you need to talk to some people who've had experience."

And they said, "Well, we don't know who to talk to." I said, "Well, you should talk to maybe someone from Sanitarium in Australia." And they said, "Good. Can you contact-- Can you connect us with someone?" So I contacted a friend who was one of the executives. He said, "You need to talk to the CEO. You need to talk to Kevin."

I thought, "No, he's, he's so busy. He's got so much going on. He's not gonna talk to us." But anyway, I contacted him, hoping that maybe he'd do a five-minute phone call or something. He said, "Well, actually, I'm gonna be in the States for some meetings at such and such a time. I'm happy to go to New York City and meet with the leaders of this church."

So I went up there and, He was there, and also he had one of his, associates with him. And for the day, he went th- they talked through the business side of it. They talked about the spiritual side of it. And from then we got a vision for centers of influence. Mm. So since, ever since that time, we've been promoting the idea of having urban centers of influence, platforms for putting Christ Method of ministry into practice.

Mm. And these centers of influence, they can be a cafe, it can be a restaurant, it can be a climbing wall, it can be English as a second language. It doesn't matter, as long as it's something that's connecting with the community and community needs. Mm. Yeah. And that was 10 times as long as you wanted it in that sense.

No, that's fine. I love it. It's great. Well, you mentioned that there's been some difficulties, and when I think of cities, I think of fast-paced, busy kind of places where people are largely indifferent to religion. Is that what you're talking about when you talk about difficulties? Are people less receptive to spirituality and faith, or have you found people are pretty open to it still?

It varies, and it depends,, because the city is, as you know, isn't just one homogenous unit. So you've got- Yeah ... different people groups and different languages and different cultures, and of course, some are gonna be more receptive than others. And we tend to find that immigrant groups, th- that because they're coming from, different backgrounds, and they're in a time of change, and they're more open.

Mm. So, and it also depends what part of the world you're in. I mean, there's, you know, you go to the 10/40 Window, there's some parts of the world that we're not even supposed to be working. It's against the law. Mm. So we have to be very careful in those areas. But yeah, generally speaking, busy, lots of distractions, different attractions, people are very consumerist. It's expensive. There's all those sort of external challenges, but then there's some internal challenges. Mm. One of the internal challenges is, one, this history we've had of, uh, keeping away from the cities, and so we haven't really had the mission focus that we should. Another internal challenge is preaching.

Uh, we like to preach, whereas, what Jesus modeled is a holistic ministry where He mingled with people, He showed sympathy, He ministered to needs. He won confidence, and then He bid people to follow Jesus. So it's a holistic incarnational approach that takes time. But historically, we've liked to come in, do the evangelistic campaign, then leave, and, and leave.

But we need to make those connection points in the community that are going to be long lasting. Yeah. Not just short-term events. Uh, another challenge is that many of our churches in urban areas are what I call commuter churches. So you have the building in the city, but none of the church members live nearby.

They commute in on Sabbath morning. They leave Sabbath afternoon. Sometimes the pastor doesn't even live in the community, so the neighborhood around the church know nothing about the Adventists except that on Saturday mornings there's less parking available. Right? Um, so, uh, we need to find a way that we revitalize some of these churches, and also find a way that we can have our pastors and church planters actually living in the neighborhoods where the churches are.

Mm. Yeah, you said something about, and I think this is a quote that gets brought up a lot, is that the Savior mingled with men. And I feel like sometimes people struggle in cities with holding that tension of like, all right, we've got to be normal and find a way to mingle, and they, lose almost their boldness or their confidence in their faith because they're just trying to, get those relationships down pat.

Have you found that to be a struggle or- Well, the thing is, in cities today, you have to earn the right to talk to people. I mean, in the city there's so many things going on. Mm. So many things vying for people's attention. Why would they listen to me? So the only way to To get the opportunity to have someone to actually listen to you is that you need to make those connections and those friendships.

Because once you've won the confidence, then they're willing to listen to you. Otherwise, why would they? Yeah. So it's not just a matter of being bold and coming in, let's press, preach the truth, here's the Bible. It's no good if no one's gonna listen. Mm. It may make our, us feel okay because we're doing God's work, but we have to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves, and that means that we have to follow Jesus' example.

I mean, I like to use this illustration, that he didn't stay in heaven and send social media posts, right? He came down, he put on human skin, he got his hands dirty, he became one with us. And I think if it was good enough for him, it's good enough for us. Mm, absolutely. Yeah, I really loved a quote, well, not a quote, I think Pastor Manny from the church in LA was talking about this this morning, and he said, "Often we are a church in the city, a church to the city, but not a church that is with the city."

Yeah. And I think that kind of goes off what you're saying there. Very much so. Yeah. Yeah. And Pastor Manny is the director of our Global Mission Center for Urban Mission, and we have six global mission centers that help us reach people in those three mission refocus windows. So we have a center for reaching, better understanding and connecting with Jewish people, with Hindu people, with Muslims, with secular and post-Christians.

So we're very intentional about making sure that we understand people, their culture, their worldviews, that we can connect on a meaningful level, uh- Mm ... to be effective in what we're called to do. Mm, amazing. Can you tell us about a moment that kind of comes to mind for you? Or maybe there's a couple that you wanna quickly touch on where you thought, "Ah," like, "that's how mission is done."

Yeah. I, I, I f- I can think of some examples. I was particularly taken with a church plant in Chicago. They planted a church, they called it Epic Church, and- ... it grew, and they then decided that they would plant another church out more in the suburbs near O'Hare Up, O'Hare Airport. And what they did is they went to a shopping mall and they rented a shop, a shop space, and they turned it into a, I think they called it the art space or the art center or something.

And- families, kids could go in there. They could paint, they could draw, they could sculpture. They could do all these sort of art activities. And then like 10 paces behind it, behind the shop front, was their worship center. Mm. So rather than expecting the community come to them, they actually went to where the community was.

And so the- Mm ... the center of influence, as it were, the art space was a place for connecting, making friends with people. And then it's a very easy step to say, "Well, you know, on Wednesday evenings we have a small group where women get together, talk about spiritual things. We'd love you to come."

Mm. And those sort of, those sort of connections. So I re- I really like that. I think, for example, too, in Kolkata- Mm ... in India, where we have, we've had an Adventist Church, one Adventist Church for more than 100 years. But we've had some global mission pioneers. These are church planters who have been working there.

We now have, I think it's like 18 house churches and nine, nine prayer groups happening there. And they just move into the community, and they make friends, and they help. I mean, one of the pioneers, he came there and he found that the, drainage system wasn't working for the community. When the, when it rained, the streets got overflowed and whatnot.

So he didn't just step back. He actually got in there himself and physically cleaned it up, freed it up. The community- Mm ... saw what he was doing. He made the connections, and now there's more than 40 people- worshipping together every Sabbath. So it's those sort of intentional ways of trying to connect with the community that really resonate with me.

Mm. Where we're not expecting them to come to our space, to our meetings, to our agenda, but we're actually going and connecting with them where they live. Mm. I think that's important. Yeah. I think even Jesus said this, "Make friends." Sometimes it's as simple as that. Yeah, sure. I'd love to know what your perspective has been on this whole South Pacific for Christ thing because for the last few days we've been celebrating how diverse our division is.

With that, does there come a difficulty? Like, can we kind of use our strategies across all our diverse countries, islands, and so on? Is it as simple as that, or do we need to be like, "This doesn't work in this place. This doesn't work in this place." Yeah. We need to adapt here and adapt there.

Yeah. Well, it's my home division, but I've been away for 30 years, so I don't presume to understand it as well as I should. But yeah, we have language differences. We have cultural differences. But I think what we need to focus is on are the principles, and, one of the projects that was discussed, one of the initiatives that was discussed in the past few days is One Voice '27, and this is, a call to commemorate 2,000 years since Jesus was baptised, and an opportunity to talk to the community about Jesus.

And Elder Kohler, the GC president, talks very much about, well, that's the vision. How you do it, that's up to you. Mm. So every-- in Fiji it will be different, done differently to Samoa. It'll be different to the way it's done in New Zealand. So I think we need to have the general principles, the general guidelines of what we're doing this together, but then we need to adapt for certain areas.

So there's no one size fits all manual for every situation. We need to take the principles, take the essence, then put it into our context. Contextualization. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, we might wrap it up there. Okay. I could ask you a million more questions, but thank you for sharing your insights with us today. My pleasure. Thank you very much

 did anything stand out to you in that, Juliana?

Yes. I think hearing of his passion for mission since he was a child, that was, that was nice. And- yeah, I think something that he said that's very timely to where we are today, just understanding that mission is actually meeting people's needs. Like when you wanna reach people, you need to be intentional and relational.

And yeah, just, trying to speak their language, and not ... Because we do have, the truth to share, but it's not just what we want to tell them, it's how we can get through to them in a way that they will understand and actually want to hear it.

Yeah. Yeah, something I heard recently is one of the first things it takes for someone to be interested in spirituality is to have a good relationship with christians that they actually trust.

I mentioned that Pastor Manny from the Adventist Church in LA, he said that often we are a church in the city, a church to the city, but not a church that is with the city.

And I think sometimes we are really good at putting on programs and inviting people to come to things, but we're not so good at kind of like doing the opposite, where we go and support them in things that they're doing in the community. Mm-hmm. Or we go to things that they're already kind of attending and entering into their circles.

So I guess having an interchange of oh yeah, invite them to things, awesome, great. Provide them things, awesome, great. But also find ways, to enter their circles as well. So I thought that was a really cool piece of advice.

Thank you everyone for coming on. It's been great talking to you, and thank you Juliana for coming on again.

No worries.