Record Live Podcast

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 And we're back with Record Live for another week. Welcome back everyone who's watching. Welcome back Zanita. I was away last week, but I'm glad to be back.

It's good to have you back. I hope you tuned in for the live show last week.

I saw you guys. You did a great job. I wasn't sure about the introduction, but we'll leave that where it was.

We've got Torben with us. , today is a doctor. Is that correct? Dr. Torben Berglund from

I'm fine. You can just say Torben. I'm a Norwegian. So I'm comfortable with just first name.

Oh, that's great. Torben's with us from Norway. Torben, you are the associate health director for the general conference of Seventh Day Adventist.

Church headquarters. You're working on the health department there. And so I guess you travel and do a lot of things, , with health around the world. And so we're very grateful that you've decided to join us today. Tell us a little bit about your background before you worked for the world church headquarters.

What was the areas that you specialized in?

I'm a medical doctor and a psychiatrist. , I say medical doctor because always people ask when they say I'm a psychiatrist, people are not sure what that is. , so that, that is a medical doctor in the bottom and then a specialization in psychiatry on top of it.

So I worked as a psychiatrist in Norway until 2016 when I was invited to work for the church. And I thought this was felt like the right thing to do. So since 2016 I worked for the Trans European division as health ministries director there until 2018 when I transitioned. to the general conference.

Awesome. You've covered large grounds there with those roles. We are talking specifically about, people in ministry and mental health. And when we're talking about mental health and when we're talking with someone who has an interest in it, I always wonder why they're so interested in it and what their passion is.

So can you tell us a little bit about like your story and what made you passionate about this topic?

Yeah, that, that's a good question, and it's always a good question also, why do people go into psychology and psychiatry? I think that usually, one reason may be it's convenience.

It's considered, as a psychiatrist, you don't have that tough night shifts. It can be a quite family friendly job. I don't think that was the driving force for me, but I think for me it's the curiosity. Thank you. about people, interest in people. I realized that early on when I was like in medical school, also in my internship,, that it was the person rather than the disease and disorder they were struggling with.

That was my interest and how to connect with that individual. And I think that it's often rooted in personal experience and personal history. Also, I don't think one should go into this unless you've in some way. I wouldn't say had issues with mental health, but that you're sensitive to those issues.

That can be personal experience. It can be what you have seen in others. Also, and I think for me, it's a combination of things. And that makes it for me, like deeply meaningful. , it's really working. That's really been one of my best decisions in life. I think I've not regretted for a second becoming a psychiatrist and for me also being able to work in the industry, has been like also meaningful.

That's also when I became a psychiatrist, I was thinking, I hope in some way that I can contribute something to the church. Never imagined working and being in health ministries. That was never my goal nor my desire. , but, , I think God worked on me and opened opportunities , so when I was asked, I was ready.

And willing to do that.

I think it's amazing Torben because often when we think of the adventist emphasis on health, diet comes to mind First of all, that's a really strong thing, but mental health it seems has been somewhat On the back burner, , in our church. And it's nice to see that they've got someone like yourself who has that expertise and that background and that interest in the area, in that space because, it brings it more, awareness to the issue.

, and there's even been, we've talked in earlier conversations. We've had a few conversations with, , ministers and different people who have been working in this space , and have struggled with mental health. themselves. There's almost a stigma sometimes around mental health in the church, and it's really encouraging, I think, to see.

You mentioned before we came on here that you're developing some resources for the World Church to be able to use in this space. So I think that's a really good step. a positive step for the church to make. Before we get too far into today's conversation, let's talk about terms, , defining what we're talking about.

So we heard you speak at empower. You came down under to Australia earlier this year and you were sharing with the pastors at Avondale College and talking about one of the things that, , was on the agenda at that time was burnout. What is burnout and how does it impact, our work life balance, our mental health?

If we can define that for our audience, , and let's start diving deeper into this topic for today.

Yeah. Well, Actually, burnout has been a bit difficult to define, and it was a term that I think came up in the 1970s. It was sort of launched as rather a popular term. Burnout sort of is not like a very medical term.

But the term made so much sense to people that it has stuck around, and,, now it is. becoming, it's coming close to becoming a recognized diagnosis also by the World Health Organization and the American Psychiatric Association. , it's not quite made it there yet,, but , it's coming there.

So it's been like conceptually, it's been related primarily to the work context. , and the background is, was health professionals were realizing that. other health professionals were struggling. , and well, they themselves were struggling. And then that's what I started to study again and came up with a burnout term.

So it's been like primarily like the research, the theories are primarily focused on the work context. But I, to me, the way I see it, I think it can be. Like related to basically any context, like the challenges, the problems that happen. , you can have that in private life, in relationships, in other tasks, in ministry.

So it's not just related to your profession and where you get your salary, of course. , it's, something that can happen in any era of life. So typically what we say, it's that it's about chronic stressors. When you are, there are issues in the context that are stressors and they are not resolved over time, they will wear and may wear you down, with, and it can lead to serious consequences.

Like people can basically be bedridden because of burnout. That's how serious it can get. So, but of course it's a spectrum, it's a spectrum when we're talking about burnout.

Yeah, it's interesting that you say it was popular in the 1970s, because I feel like burnout has sort of become a hot word again, like, often I'll hear people say, at the end of a busy day or the end of a busy week, oh, I'm just so burnt out, like, it's kind of in our daily language now, but what, what kind of symptoms might someone experience when they're actually burnt out in compared to just.

stressed or maybe a little bit overworked.

Yeah. And that's important to distinguish because we can all get tired. And, that's, uh, tiredness is, adequate normal response to whatever workload, we've had. But when you come to burnout, it's a more like a more constant experience.

It's not just transitory. It's not that you just take a day off or have a good night's rest, and then you're ready to go again. It's something that is more, more constant with you. And what we typically say, like the most, obvious thing is energy depletion or exhaustion, both physically and, or emotionally it can be either.

So that's what we I think most people recognize like this, just exhaustion, depletion, you just don't have anything more to give. But beyond that, I think that's where it's important. To understand the concept beyond that there's more to burnout than that. And there are other dimensions to burnout that can, I think, also typically show up earlier.

Number two that is important to recognize is when you are starting to distance yourself from work, when you are disengaging from work, that's also a significant indication. And... An important indication of burnout you become typically like negative, you become more cynical critical, you just see the bad things like you become like ruminate about them.

That's all you can see in a way. And that's not like a work ethics issue. It's a symptom of burnout. So that's when you if you recognize that I'm not. I don't see hope. I don't enjoy this anymore. I'm critical of those I work with, of those I work for, those I'm serving.

That's, it's not just like saying that you're a bad person or whatever. It's, it can be an indication. And then lastly, number three which is important also, it's that you become negative about yourself. Also, you feel. And yeah of course, your performance declines in this that you're not as efficient anymore.

You're procrastinating these things, but also a critical self evaluation that you think I'm not good enough. I'm not competent enough. I should probably do something else. That's also like a sign of burnout. Yeah, those three things, exhaustion disengaging and inefficacy. Those are our indications of burnout.

The way it's defined.

It's interesting that you said this was first identified in the health. Workers area. Is there a correlation between, we hear about things like compassion fatigue. I'm just thinking in a pastoral context or a ministry type context. People are giving, giving to others.

Is that related in some way to this feel these feelings of burnout that can crop up When we when we give too much of ourselves Yeah.

Yeah, I think that just definitely is a risk if you are a giving to, to others performing, but your own sort of what you need is not being filled up.

And that, that's where I think pastors, just as much as health professionals and other people who are. Various kinds of service providers are at significant risk that often our focus is on, on helping others, serving others. But if that's not sufficiently balanced with having your own needs provided for, that you take care of them yourself and that there's a supportive network.

Because I think that's really key in this. You need a supportive network. If you're going to support others. if you don't have a supportive network for yourself, you will like almost certainly burn out sooner or later. So I think that's really something that I'm I care a lot about that how do pastors, how do whatever service you are providing, that can be that you're a lay member in the church, also helping supporting giving but you need a back, like someone.

Behind you and someone you feel that you are supporting you working with someone that feed you in what you're doing also

Yeah, awesome. We've you've identified what burnout is and define the difference of stress and burnout when we actually find ourselves in that or if we're Maybe even approaching that What are some other things we can do to safeguard ourselves or to counteract that burnout?

I'm not specifically just meaning like for passers because obviously we have church members too. And even today I had someone message me coincidentally saying, I'm experiencing burnout and I was told to talk to you. I don't know why they were told to talk to me maybe because they knew I was going to talk to you.

But what can we, how can we help these people? Or what can people do who are maybe experiencing burnout? Do in their lives to help with

that. Yeah. I think like the first important thing is you have to recognize it and take it seriously. Because what we easily can do is that since our, if our performance productivity is dropping, when we're starting to be self critical feeling that we are no good in whatever we're doing, like the.

It may be easy to just push harder and keep working more compensating by not having boundaries, not taking time off, but like just getting into like constantly trying to do what you're supposed to do and what you're not feeling that you're doing well enough. And that's really, that, that will.

It will really make you spiral down even faster if you do that. Recognizing that it is burnout is the first step. And then to take appropriate measures. And, like what your friend did, or colleague did reaching out to someone and talk about that. That is, is very important in that situation.

Someone that can help and support you. But. What I think the immediate step is that often you need to take a break to recharge. That is, is the first, often the first step. And that's also what some of the research indicates also at my, the hospital I worked before I started working for the church.

We had a clinic for health professionals with burnout issues and their research indicated that the most. The fastest way of recovering was to take like a complete break from work for a sufficient amount of time until you had recovered. And that may be something that people are very reluctant to do.

They think, okay let me just slow down 20% or maybe take 50% sick leave. I don't know the system in Australia or on your territories, but that's what many will try to just reduce the load a little bit. But that really can make those things take longer. So for for some, if it's really, It's become like a significant burnout where you're not functioning well, probably taking a complete break for a time would be the appropriate thing and most efficient thing to do to get back.

Oh, but beyond that I think again, the support part, but I really I think it's important reaching out to someone and taking a closer look at your support network in whatever you're doing. And that's also what's like super important in terms of prevention, to make sure you have. Like both formal and informal support networks and systems for whatever you're doing.

That's, yeah I really think that's important.

One issue that we, one of our viewers has written in Linnell, and she's thinking along the same lines as I was when you were answering some of those questions She said then you feel the niggling of that text. Don't grow weary in doing good I was thinking more of the take up your cross follow me sacrifice We've been told in especially in previous generations give everything for the cause of Christ, just pour yourself out If the more it hurts, the better, because you're actually, giving, giving to ministry and yet some of what you're describing, it's well, how do we find that balance?

How do we sacrifice, give ourselves as a living sacrifice? But still not suffer burnout because we've given too much of ourselves. Is there a theology around how, Christians should understand some of this stuff?

Oh I... I'm, I won't venture into too much into the theology.

That's not my area but I think we have a culture challenge in the way that we have this idea, this expectation that ministry is supposed to be painful and almost we're like, we're expecting suffering in that, even to the point of martyrdom. And I think we, we still have that of course, I think there, there will be times when we have to be willing and acknowledge that things can be rough and tough in whatever we are doing, but that's not really Healthy and sustainable approach to life or to ministry or to service.

And I think that's also, I think we have Jesus example with the disciples. He took them aside, come rest for a while. As a church, Seventh day Adventist church, we have.

like a history or so the health message was basically one of the important things we why we got it was because people were burnt out and then they were unhealthy and we needed the health message in all in order to sustain the church basically and that people could stay sound and healthy so I think that, that is important, like we, we have to be willing to invest and to suffer at times and to work hard at times, but that really needs to be balanced with sufficient nourishment, physically, mentally, socially, and spiritually.

Otherwise, we'll, otherwise we'll. run empty and have very little to give. And my concern is also that people who are burnt out they're not only, they become typically, like it's in a way it can be contagious in. System and whether that's a local church or that's an organization that people who are burnt out, they often like become, because it's part of burnout, it's a symptom, they become negative, they become critical.

It becomes difficult to collaborate and typically also become less creative, less innovative. So it just drains the whole system. Like burnout is. Something that drains the whole system of energy. And that's why I think we are much better off having well rested, healthy, happy people in whatever we're doing because we will just perform so much better.

Yeah, it's true. Having these guidelines like rest and health will just sustain us to do more work. When we're talking about pastors and mental health or people in ministry, I guess specifically pastors, the training a pastor gets It doesn't really equip them to deal with the expectations or the challenges that they come across primarily they get theological training.

Yeah, they're expected to be like a counsellor, a minister, an administrator, an economist, an events manager, like, all these things they're expected to be. And so they have, a lot of them, I think, try to live up to that, and they just try to do all of these things. And hence why burnout is so prevalent for pastors how can they begin to manage these expectations or speak to their churches, for example to create like realistic expectations of what they should be doing?

Yeah I think like before that, I think we have a, as a church, an organization we are struggling like with the role of the pastor because there's like very high expectations there. And I think we need to do more work also in defining,

and having a strategy for how to deal that. Because as you say, like those expectations, There's no human being who can be an expert on all those different aspects. People will have their strengths and their weaknesses. And I think that's. Also where the church needs to be realistic, I think the community, wherever a pastor serves, they need to be realistic and to be kind to the pastor.

Also not expect the pastor to be super competent in each of these dimensions. But also the pastor also needs to communicate and to define also for The, the church where, what the pastor has to offer what are the pastor's strength and where the church will need to step up and provide people who are competent in the areas that the pastor isn't going to like.

Some pastors are excellent preachers some are decent preachers and can do that well, but they may excel in administration, they may excel in, in, in other things. So again, we need to work as I think the body of Christ in this, and the pastor isn't the entire body of Christ in a local church either, like you will have to work together and.

Put this piece together in a way that, that works well.

I'm wondering Torben, if this is a cultural issue or you see it around the world when you travel and talk to church members, church pastors about burnout, is it a Western thing? Cause we feel like our culture is pushing all the time, very fast paced, but do you see it around?

Is it a widespread problem in the church?

Yes, I think it's a widespread. I think it may manifest and the reasons in different parts of the world may be different. Like you go to some parts of the world where a pastor has 15, 20 churches and it's expected to baptize a certain number of people every year.

Other places pastor has maybe one church or two church and western part where Baptisms are rare and difficult. So I think the challenges vary. But I think the problems are similar around the world, but I think probably the the willingness and openness to talk about mental health issues and burnout, I think in the Western part of the world.

We, we are more ready and open to that. There's less stigma, not that there, there's still stigma in the West, also about mental health issues, but also in some places of the world, you just cannot talk about that. Just came from Malawi where talked about mental health in a context where mental health is not talked about and no one.

or people are not willing to admit to it. So in that sense we made progress. But I think still there's still significant shame in that. And if you say as a pastor or whatever you are, you're admitting to burnout. People will start to distrust you, people will question things so in our part of the world well, I say our part, Norway, Australia, the US.

But but I think it's a general, it's a human problem. For sure.

I'd love to know as a psychiatrist and a church worker, what are some of the key practices or hacks that you implement in your life to maintain balance while juggling a full time job and a ministry job?

Yeah I'm not perfect in that regard.

And also one of the challenges in my work is that I travel a lot. Of course, that's really makes it difficult to practice some of the things I know. But I think for me, what's really important. Is exercise and sleep like these are things that practices that I know are just absolutely essential for me to function well.

I. I think the general recommendation is ideally we should exercise every day. And that doesn't mean I'm a cyclist. I've enjoyed, I was in Australia cycling with a team of pastors there where we would riding long, long distances. Like you don't have to do anything like that, but like getting the half an hour a day, one hour a day, that's an excellent investment of time, however busy you are.

And that's my experience. Also, I. If I exercise, I'm just much more efficient. And so that's something I would put at the top of my list of practices for that. The other is sleep, the importance of sleep. And that's, this is something where I also think we have a culture problem. I often experience people.

Basically bragging about working late nights and that I might hear that in meetings, and I think we, we have this like almost idea, if you get, if you sleep eight hours a night or even nine, which some may need, some people need, like we, we say for adults, generally seven to nine hours of real quality sleep is what you need to perform optimally.

And. like you almost maybe someplace you almost considered lazy if you do that. But that's really if you're not sleeping sufficiently, your brain is not working optimally. It's that easy. It's that simple. So that is reorganizing your life. so that you can get quality sleep and slowing down.

That's, I think, very important. That's something that the way things work now that we often we go nonstop until we switch off the lights and go to bed. And then we expect to be able to sleep. The recommendation is don't use any screens one to two hours. before sleep. But like the last, I think most of us, we, the last thing we see often before going to sleep is our screens.

So like these things are very important, but then also taking time for relationships. It's important, and I think, and that's also my plea to pastors, take time for your families. That is, is so important, taking real time off, spending family time every week like every day, also having meals together.

I think that's... So important. And I think that's also how we build relationships. We're coming back to talking about how we build supportive networks. There's something about eating together that, that facilitates relationships. And that's something that I think in family is important. Having breakfast, dinner together as far as possible.

If you work together as a team, take time to eat together, enjoy that. Fellowship that happens around the table. I think that's, those are some of the things that are important.

As Adventists, we often sell the Sabbath as a, an antidote to burnout in some ways. Something that and yet for some of us, Sabbath is the busiest day of the week. We're doing church, we're doing different programs. How do we Sabbath well? Obviously it's going to differ from person to person, but is there is there a way all of us, but also our pastors could do sabbath better that would help to break the circuit once a week that would just help with this buildup of burnout.

. My recommendation whenever I talk to pastors is just realizing, and that's many, not just pastors, but many lay people also are engaged in work, like Sabbath is a very busy day. And then my recommendation is then practice the Sabbath rest on another day. If you can't do it on Sabbath, really, you should really then take.

do it on another day. And that's what I heard several people do during the pandemic, realize when we're not able to go to church, many sort of discovered how nice it was to have that day off. But really that's something that they should do. It's a bit, it's a bit controversial to say, do it on Sunday but I think that's something we should read because we need that day off.

A trend that I found interesting also like a basically a secular trend is what people talk about taking a digital sabbath. Taking a day off a week where you don't, you're not online. I think that's really something that also is worth considering. Because the digital world, which is something, it's so easily accessible but it takes our focus away from ourselves and the people around us.

So I think that's something to consider also when we're considering Sabbathing doing the Sabbath well to make that a day of, digital rest. Also that wasn't a challenge 20, 30 years ago, it's only a challenge today. That I think we should consider, but also I think making Sabbath a relational day.

Of course, if you are introverted, you may like need, you don't want to throw a big party every Sabbath but still introverts also need like good relational time but it may be with. People where you really enjoy where you recharge, but that is something that I think is, we should do.

Yeah, there's some great suggestions.

Since we are just scraping the surface, really, when it comes to burnout and mental health. Trying to squish everything into 30 minutes. Are there any resources or books that you found particularly helpful on this topic that people can get more information from if they're interested?

I think there's lots of good research online.

And actually what I often do, I often find on mental health issues, Wikipedia is often a good place to start. Some people talk negatively about Wikipedia, but I think it's often good. I think often that's my, on mental health, I find it good. And then beyond that, like well recognized websites, organizations on this can be.

Like psychological associations, psychiatric associations beyond that there are books, if you go on Britain, several good books on that. I, one book I enjoyed maybe most because of the title is one by someone who was a priest in England who wrote like a book that titled you are more important than your ministry.

I just thought that was such an excellent title and it's it says so much so and that was a good book. I reference also someone who then works now in encouraging clergy, to take care of themselves so but Yeah. I don't know like specifically otherwise than that. I think just go online and look for books that are well recognized articles, organizations.

There's lots of good resources, videos, of course, on YouTube. You will find many good things there. .

It's been great to have you Torben. Thank you for joining us. All the way from Norway. I know we've been trying to get you amidst your travels. So we're really grateful for all that you've shared with us today.

Thank you.

Everyone else, we will see you next week, I believe, for another episode 📍 of Record Live.