Record Live Podcast

RECORD Live Podcast Intro_long
Intro: [00:00:00] Hi there everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Sunita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church faith and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we'd put into practice. Let's go live.
Zanita Fletcher: Hello everyone and welcome to another week of record live today. Jesse, you are stepping in as my co-host. Again, always good to have you jump in on the conversation, so thank you for being here with us.
Jesse Herford: You're very welcome. I think all you need is another bearded man, so I'm happy to fill that role today.
Zanita Fletcher: So just by default has to be one each week, so, you have to be here, of course. , And we also joined by Josh Carney. Thank you for jumping on to record line with us this week.
Josh Carnie: No worries. Thanks for having me.
Zanita Fletcher: Awesome. Well, you [00:01:00] apparently have a podcast of your own, so hopefully this won't be too daunting for you today.
, But before we get into things, do you just wanna fill our listeners in? Who are you? Tell us a little bit about, , what does a day in the life of Josh look like?
Josh Carnie: Yeah, no worries. Well, , I'm a pastor in Keville Sydney, and so that , keeps me busy. I'm 50% at Keville Adventist Church and 50% at Hills Adventist College as a chaplain.
And so that's , my work life. I'm married to a wonderful woman named Haley, and we have two kids, a almost 3-year-old and a six month old. And so that keeps us, , busy all hours of the day and all hours of the night. As I know all parents will be aware.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, I'm sure Jesse can relate especially.
Jesse Herford: Definitely. , So Josh go, oh no, you go for it. Zita.
Zanita Fletcher: So we wanted to, bring you on today because you obviously, like I mentioned, have started a podcast called It's All There. , Before we get into, I guess, the nitty gritty of that, can you tell us [00:02:00] a bit about like, what is this podcast all about and what kind of inspired you to start it?
Josh Carnie: Yeah, no worries. Well, as a, as a chaplain and as a pastor, obviously a big part of the job is doing Bible studies with people and, especially in the school context at,, the school that I'm at, there's a large portion of the students that aren't even Christian, let alone Adventist. And so oftentimes when it comes to class Bible studies and doing Bible studies with students, , we have the majority people that have either a little bible knowledge or pretty much no Bible knowledge.
And so doing bible studies, especially in a huge group. Presented a few challenges, because of the way that , we did bible studies at hills, a lot of the time the kids just wanted to get out of class, so they thought, oh, if I can go to Bible studies, I can get outta class. So I thought, okay. , so they thought, okay.
And so oftentimes you'd get, you know, 20 year nine boys that would just come into the room with you and sit down and, you know, that they weren't there to, to go through , the, the topic of the [00:03:00] day. We have a whole bunch of world change Bibles at school and. The world changer topics. , , when it comes to the Trinity or when it comes to Sabbath, when it comes to State of the Dead, they weren't really, they weren't really that interested.
And so it was probably around a year of me doing Bible studies with people from, grade five, so around 10 year olds all the way up to year twelves. And , I, I would often leave extremely frustrated because I would have a goal of what I would like to achieve. And they had a completely different idea of what they wanted to achieve in the time.
And so over time I just decided, you know what? I'm just gonna not worry about doing the world change of Bible study pamphlet. I just flipped it on them and I just said, guys, well, what do you, what do you wanna know? Does anyone have any questions? And almost immediately, the whole dynamic changed. And , I remember the first time I, I ever did this, , you know, living in 20, in, in the 21st century.
One of the first questions straight [00:04:00] off the bat was, sir, what are your thoughts on transgenders? And I said, oh, , what do you mean? And so I, I put it back on them and, and helped un, I guess, unpack their question and immediately all the chatter, all the marks stopped because they wanted to hear , my answer to their question.
And then after that, it just started this. Avalanche of people having their own questions about certain parts that they've read in the Bible. , they, they bring up certain tiktoks or Instagram reels or YouTube shorts , that at a, an Ask Cliff question or something like that, or a Jordan Peterson quote, or an Andrew Tate quote, and they would say, Hey, sir, I saw this, or Pastor Joshua saw this.
What are, what are your thoughts , on this idea or this topic, or this verse, or this whatever. And so instead of it be being a, , sit down. Open up the Bible and let's go through, a dedicated study with specific questions and a specific application. At the end, it became a lot more dynamic and a lot more real for these young people.
So that really just [00:05:00] sparked, a love for me to firstly know my stuff because at the end of the day, they can ask questions, but if I don't have a response to those questions, then there's no point in them spending time with me. So it really gave me, I guess, the permission to really read widely, to listen widely, and to just open myself up to topics that are really important to, especially young people in a high school context.
And the church. In the T church context and, , number two, what it did was it allowed them to. Have an opportunity to voice any of the questions or, or things that they had to someone that wasn't just in their peer group that may not have had the answers or may not had the responses from an educated or from a well thought through point of view.
And so, yeah, it's been really, really fun. And so what I thought I could do with these podcasts, it's all there is, you know, I was, I was just really thinking about the, the gospel message and how every question. Can find an answer in the person of Jesus and it, [00:06:00] and basically , it's all there. And so I thought, why don't I, , why don't I record some of the questions or the, some of the responses to the questions that, young people give me, or, or people just in Churchland have about the Bible and have it there as kind of a library so that when people say, Hey, I have a question on this, , or that I can say, Hey.
Here's, here is my, I can give you my response, but also here's, a more thought through produced version of that response that may help you in your walk. So that's kind of the, the background behind the story for me.
Jesse Herford: Hmm. I know that a lot of. Pastors, like those Bible study sets. 'cause they're pretty safe, they're well contained, , and , you can go through it systematically.
You don't really have to stray too far from sort of the prescribed material kind of thing. You mentioned how, allowing these kids to throw these curly questions at you meant that you really had to be on your toes, well read or informed about , these issues. How did you navigate that?
[00:07:00] Because I imagine they're not. As interested in things like the state of the dead , as such, and they're absolutely much more interested in the stuff that typically Christians like to sear away from. You already mentioned transgenderism, but I'm assuming stuff around sexuality and sex and all these sorts of stuff.
This is what I imagine teenage boys are obsessed with. So , how do you navigate that? Very, very, very tricky minefield.
Josh Carnie: Yeah, I guess, , yeah, , that's a, that's a great question. I guess it's just realizing that if we're wanting to reach it, I, it's, it, it requires maybe just taking a step back and, and reframing evangelism, especially in school land,.
With an environment where at least 50% of our students aren't, aren't Christian. And it's just realizing that the things that matter to me, you know, I'm, I'm a field, I'm a pastor, and so I love theology, but I have to remember that the things that matter to me, like going through the doctrine of the state of the [00:08:00] dead or like going through the set, like going through the trinity , and the incarnation may not matter to them.
And so if I want to evangelize, if I want to get on the same page with them, I first must. Make an interest, I'll put an interest in what interests them. And so that's kind of the first step for me in, I guess, evangelizing in the school context of I need to actually put my, , put some mental thought into the things that they put mental thought into a lot and at the end of the day, what's on their TikTok feeds or YouTube short feeds or Instagram reels and whatnot.
And, , the conversations that we have are always great because. We can always bring whatever question people may have to some sort of biblical route. At least I try my best to do that in some way, shape or form. And I think it's really helpful to know that for young people, that as a pastor, I actually come to the questions, , that they have with the response that is, you know.
I'd like to think well thought out, but ultimately rooted in a biblical worldview that ultimately, , is [00:09:00] shaped by the death rows erection of Jesus. So, yeah, I I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, Jesse, but that's my response to that. Well, I think it's a
Jesse Herford: good philosophy, right? Because , it's more.
It's hard to get, it's easy to get bogged down, I should say, in some of the specifics. But it sounds like what you're laying out, at least trying to guide these young students through is sort of a framework or a philosophy to approaching life, which is often something that we don't do. Hmm.
Zanita Fletcher: I really like that approach that you are going to individuals and first asking them what do you wanna know? What questions do you have? Instead of just, I guess the typical like, alright, we, I'm gonna now teach you about this and then next week we wanna look at this and then next week we're gonna look at this and I've, maybe both of you can answer this 'cause I'm sure you've both got a bit of experience.
But, I've done bible studies with a handful of individuals and I'm not. Pastor, I've never studied theology and so often it's been quite daunting. Even when I [00:10:00] pre look at the study guides, I'm like, well, if I ask this or if I go through this, then they're inevitably gonna ask this because I would wanna know that.
And so I have found myself having to spend a long time preparing and thinking of all the questions that they might ask. And it's, I don't know, quite a process I suppose, when you are starting out doing it. , And so I guess the question I have is for people who are. Maybe have the invitation to go through the Bible or answer questions about the Bible with someone that they know, or if they have that passion to study with people, but they are daunted by , I don't know all the answers, or I don't, , I don't really know where to start.
What can they do to kind of, , get started or what kind of resources can they turn to or, yeah.
Josh Carnie: Mm-hmm. Cei, what would you say?
Jesse Herford: I think there's plenty of good resources out there. , But there, I think there are some good books as well that I would recommend people look at. , It [00:11:00] depends on your, , level of understanding, I would say.
, I think for kids, I wouldn't recommend something like, how to read the Bible for all it's worth, which is was one of my textbooks. I'm sure you read that as well, Josh, back in the day.
Josh Carnie: Mm-hmm.
Jesse Herford: But I also think that there are some really good, . , Influencers out there and you have to be really careful about who you listen to.
This is all part of, , we, we all live in the social media world, but there are some pretty good influence influencers out there that, , can be helpful. I don't know if you class the Bible project as an influencer, but that's, I think, organization or a movement of people that. Doing stuff that, , really speaks to the visual way of learning that a lot of people find more natural these days, especially teenagers.
And the fact that it's so thoughtfully put together and created so beautifully, visually as well as like the audio, I think is great. , But I also think that a lot of people make the mistake of starting. You know reading the Bible in Genesis [00:12:00] or , studying in Genesis sort of thing, which,, Genesis is great, but if somebody is just starting out with Bible study, I'd definitely recommend starting with a gospel.
I think that's a pretty elementary kind of piece of advice, but I think it's definitely a solid one. I don't know what you think, Josh.
Josh Carnie: No, I think definitely the gospels, , book of Mark especially, it's just the shortest gospel, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the least important. , It's so beautiful.
, Yeah. I guess to, to address your question, Sunita, from a different way is, I think it's just super important regardless of where you're at in your spiritual journey, just to be deeply saturated in scripture. , , I've been recently. With this idea of,, the Psalm one, a Psalm one type of person, which is someone that meditates on the law day and night as, as Psalm one says.
And it says, you know, someone that is able to do that is someone that is able to bear, bear, , bear fruit in its season and their trees will ne and their leaves will never wither. And I just love that idea because it's, [00:13:00] a meditation on the word is what gives you the. I guess that it, it gives you , the grounds in which to be able to respond to the different areas and things that come up in your life, and I think that's why.
If you have one of those , pamphlets that you go through in Bible study , or like, a written, I guess, curriculum for lack of a better term. , And there's a question that comes up that's maybe not addressed in the curriculum or not addressed in, in the question the, ,, the person that's deeply saturated in the word.
The longer that we do that, the more that we do that we we're shaped into a type of person that even if we may not know the answer entirely, we have some sort of response that we can give. , And yeah, in terms of resources as well. Yeah, I'm a big, I love the Bible project. My favorite thing about them is the, the podcasts, , and just going deep in, into theology, so that, that really gives me a lot of theological, , insight.
, Something that helps make scripture. Easy to understand and convey as well in short, short bites is, , NT [00:14:00] Wright's , commentary series on, oh, I'm blanking on the name of the commentary series right now. .
Jesse Herford: Oh, the, , Bible book blank for everyone. Series.
Josh Carnie: Yes. Yeah. The, the, the book for everyone. So right now I'm reading through the book of John Devotional and so in the morning my devotional practices, , just reading whatever passage of the day it is.
So today it was John, John eight verses 30 38 to, , , 48. And so I read that in the morning, and then in the evening I reread it. But with , with NT writes. Little thought at the end of it, and so I, I've been so amazed just. Over the last month at how, like, going so slowly through this book , and reading the book of John as well, how many things have come up, , whether I'm preaching or they're in a Bible study or whatever, that, because I've just been slowly meditating on the word and been re and reading and he write stuff.
I can say, oh, actually yeah, John five is a scriptural points to Jesus, but. Life is, is found in Jesus. Mm-hmm. Oh, actually, yeah. Jesus is a bread of life , in John six. Here's, here's what it [00:15:00] means for you. And so, yeah, there, there are definitely some resources that , can help you Bible project and to your right stuff.
, For, for starters. So I think it's just being open to learning from all different parts of life, all different parts of church history, , different authors, different, different styles. . My, my mentor pastor, pastor Martin Matic, he always makes fun of me because every sermon that I, that I write, I always like to go to the Desert Fathers and read some stuff from the Desert Fathers , and he always says, oh, what have you read from the Desert Fathers today?
You know? , So yeah, just having, yeah, just having a, , just a wide, a wide variety of, material to consume, I think is super important for anyone's development.
Zanita Fletcher: Awesome. Mm-hmm.
Jesse Herford: Could I just bounce off something that, , Josh was saying and maybe Zita you might wanna respond to it? Or either of you, the practice that we have as Protestants of reading through the Bible in verses and chapters, , in a devotional sense or any other sense.
It's really, [00:16:00] as far as the history of Christianity is concerned, is a very, very recent development. I mean, it was only really post, Gutenberg and the printing press that we had this phenomenon of people actually being able to read the Bible for themselves. And obviously that's something to be celebrated and it's amazing that we have the Bible in all these different languages and that you and I can actually read it.
. But when I think of the story of the Bible, you know, just reflecting on that Psalm one, being a tree kind of by the watered stream, , it's, it's fruitful. , It's well watered. And when I think of that ancient Jewish meditation literature kind of concept, it just reminds me of how the Bible, especially the Jewish Bible, but I think to a certain degree of the New Testament as well.
I mean, James is. The brother of Jesus when he's writing his book in the New Testament is definitely riffing on wisdom literature, for instance. , But the Bible is, I don't think designed to be read in the way that [00:17:00] most of us read it, probably on, on the regular. , It's more something to be digested slowly.
And I'm so glad that you brought that up, Josh, because I think that there's a sense in which we often just use the Bible as a. Source for proof texting. And I think that's partly the problem that I have , with traditional bible study methodology. Because we come up with a topic and we go, okay, what does the Bible say about the state of the dead or marriage?
Or what does the Bible say about salvation? And so we go, okay, we have to arrange, , all of this sort of systematic theology. Around a, a,, a narrative that makes sense. And then we present that as though that's the Bible's one unified response to a particular topic without taking into account the culture that, that bore each particular passage, the reason it was written, [00:18:00] who wrote it, all these other really interesting , and needful, nuances.
And we just. You know, in our Bible study, in our Sabbath school classes, we just say, okay, well, the Bible says , this, and that about this particular topic. All right, everybody good? Okay, good, let's move on. And it's like, man, how are we, how are we becoming like that? Well, watered tree,, we're not, we're just looking to the Bible to confirm what we already.
Believe kind of thing, you know, or, or to, try and push somebody else down who believes wrongly or doesn't believe the right thing in the right way, or whatever the case may be. , Yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: So
Jesse Herford: I don't, yeah, I don't know if any of you want to riff on that. Disagree with me. Please go for it.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, I think you're right.
I think a lot of the times, , the well-known acronym that I think a lot of us have left behind is the Bible is Basic Instructions for Leaving Earth. And that's how a lot of people look at it, or they look at it as like a fortune cookie, or they [00:19:00] look at it as like a handbook of morals, but they miss that.
It's like an actual story. And like you're saying, Jesse, along for a lot of history. They didn't read it like we do in chapters and verses, they just, one person would read it and everyone would listen. And I think that's a really cool, I don't know, maybe thing cool thing for people to experiment with is like getting together with people and just reading the story.
Like have someone read it and just listen and soak it in , and I guess have a conversation from that. But I dunno if you want to add anything to that, Josh?
Josh Carnie: Yeah, no. Jesse, 100% agree with you. I think that's part of the reason why I struggle sometimes with, I guess, the traditional bubble study handouts, because , it's pretty much, sometimes it's just this idea of, all right,, here is a thought that we believe here is a footnote.
Which is a bubble verse. Now let's move on. And I struggle with that. And, yeah, something that I guess has really helped me, which was really surprising is someone gave, I don't know where I think I got it from a conference, but I received a bible. That [00:20:00] is written like a, nor like a, like the layout of it is like a normal book.
So it has no verses, no, no chapters. It just reads , like a novel , or something like that. And so I don't know. Whenever I see the chapters and numbers, sometimes I can say, all right. I've immediately just kind of like chunked things together. All this thing is separate to the thing before and the thing after, but having no numbers and verses reading it like that, the flow on effect was just crazy.
And, , it really just helped, I guess, under helped me understand that. All right. We shouldn't use scripture as a footnote , to, I guess, appeal to any point that we're trying to make, but we should actually see scripture in light of. It being part of a bigger narrative , and what is a bigger narrative trying to teach us.
Yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: I heard you say in a, , I had a flick through your first episode of your podcast, Josh, and I heard you kind of talk about this idea that many people, , they understand the Bible and they understand Christianity on a [00:21:00] surface level. But it doesn't like penetrate their hearts and change them. , And I think probably, I don't know, maybe all of us can have experience that or can relate with that at some point in our lives.
But what do you think the reason for that is? Because I feel like a lot of people , they read their bibles, they pray, they kind of. Follow those rituals because they care and they do want it to penetrate their hearts, but it's just not. , Do you have any ideas as to why that could be? Or has this been something that you've experienced in your own life?
Josh Carnie: Oh, yeah. It's, I I would say for much of my life , it, it's been, it's been something that, , that it's just been something I had to do in order to be a good Christian. I remember, , I think the reason why I am. I am someone that took reading the Bible and took spirituality seriously. Was I had a really awesome teacher when I was in primary school.
Her name ironically was Mrs. Christian. And I went to an Adventist school, so she was an [00:22:00] Adventist teacher named Mrs. Christian. And she, she was awesome. She, she was. We, we would sit down, recite Psalm nine one together. She had actions and everything like that, but something that she, she kind of grilled into us is, Hey, if you guys want to be a Christian, something that you need to do is read your Bible.
So whether you read long chapters at a time or even just one verse a day, , just read your Bible. So from grade three onwards, I, I've been someone that has been reading the Bible, so almost 20 years now. But for a lot of those years it hasn't necessarily been something that has been impactful for me because I think whether it's Adventist culture , or just, , my own personal hangups.
. , Reading the Bible, was something that I had to do in order to show God, all right, I'm serious about you. Like, look, I'm doing this. And so instead of it being something that brought me joy, it was more of a burden. And, but as soon as I was done, my, my scripture reading for the day, I could then go on and do whatever it is that I wanted to do that would , make me happy.[00:23:00]
And so I think a lot of people., My assumption, and I don't wanna speak on, on anyone's behalf, but my assumption is that I think a lot of people perhaps in the modern day relate to reading the Bible more out of obligation and duty as opposed to something that they desire to do. And , when something becomes, , an obligation, the joy is quickly , taken away , from that thing.
And so for me, what really had to, to change in my life is to actually. Actually take a step back , and firstly it would, I credit, , God's work in my heart through the Holy Spirit to helping me, , to helping me understand and see the beauty of scripture and that it is not just a bunch of texts that are put together that prove certain beliefs or certain doctrines, but it's actually, as Jesse mentioned before, a, a fully unified story that leads to Jesus.
And so , , that was a really important thing for me. And secondly, I had to understand like if I wanted to follow Jesus, then scripture is Jesus' [00:24:00] story. And so even the hard parts, even the nitty gritty parts, they all somehow relate to him , in some way, shape, or form. And so that gave me a different framework, but I think what has started to change it from.
From a duty and a sense of obligation to something that I look forward to do is kind of just, taking away , the legalistic side of things. And , making it something, you know, I think being a pastor, having to execute the word , and, . Trying to, trying to make sense of every passage or trying to get a sermon out of every passage, I have to kind of take that mindset , off of me.
And sometimes I read the Bible and I'll have no idea what I just read, or I'll be so confused at what I just read. And right now I'm in that, I'm in that, that tension right now. You know, this idea of, Jesus in the Book of John , and this idea of how there are, you know, he and the father are a witness to the things that he's doing.
And I'm like, , what does it even mean? What, what does that mean? And so. Sometimes, , living with the attention of, do you know what, I may not necessarily understand everything [00:25:00] right now, but that's okay. Just keep going and , see where it leads you and allowing your curiosity to guide, guide your.
Scriptural direction. And so yeah, they, they're some of the things that has helped me. And so that, that's kind of allowed the, the surface level reading of scripture of, all right, I need to read a chapter a day, or I need to do this. , And taking that away. And sometimes I'll read just a co, I'll just read a verse.
And the other day I was just reflecting on, , John 7 37 to 39 about Jesus saying, if anyone is thirsty, come to me and I'll give them. Water, which he, when he is talking about the Holy Spirit, and I just had to, I just sat with that verse for, , 45 minutes one morning and I say 45 minutes, like I'm really holy.
It was really like 10 minutes. Interspersed by 35 minutes of my son jumping on me and wanting breakfast , and cereal and stuff. But , just , allowing time just to, to really focus on the parts of scripture that are speaking to you at the moment caused me to say, you know what? This isn't a burden.
This is actually something that's giving me a life and something that I need right now. So even a verse at a time is okay. [00:26:00]
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm.
Josh Carnie: So, yeah, that's, I hope that answers your question.
Jesse Herford: Yeah. , Just going back to these bible studies you're doing with, these teenagers at your school. I don't know if any, standout moments come to mind, but have there been any,, big moments or aha moments for some of these students?
Like funny moments, , , what's the experience actually been like for you , and for them?
Josh Carnie: I think, , uh oh. I think the experience for me has been one of just. Just, , pure joy to see them get something that they may have not understood before. , Whether it be a theological concept or just something that never, they've never thought about, that's always just so exciting to see as a pastor.
I think, , something funny, I don't know whether you've, you guys will find it funny, but oftentimes, young people, especially in a classroom setting or when there's at least like three or four year nine or 10 boys, that, that age where. [00:27:00] You know, they're just mucking around , and, having fun, oh, it's, it's hard, it's hard to keep a moment of silence, among them.
And I remember when I first started doing this technique of, oh, well, just this way of just asking, allowing them to ask their questions when, . When they started talking amongst themselves, they'd tell each other to be quiet. They'd like, Hey, Josh, she's talking. Shut up. Trying. And I just thought that was so funny because I thought, wow, I'm, they're interested because we're speaking to something that they're interested to.
. And so yeah, , that's definitely made moments like that have made bible studies worth it when I've done it , this way. So, yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: That's how, you know, you've got their attention. Yeah. So, good. , Well we like to, end things here on a practical note, and you've already given us some practical advice, but I just kind of wanted to give you the opportunity.
Is there anything else you would like to kind of leave ? , Any advice or kind of inspiration that you'd like to share?
Josh Carnie: , I guess just follow your curiosities. I think, I think, , [00:28:00] oftentimes , the questions or the tensions that we have about scripture and about Jesus and or about Christianity in general, other things that, will lead us deeper into our faith if we're curious enough , to ask them to people that we trust.
So that's probably my practical advice.
Zanita Fletcher: Awesome. Cool. For anyone who would like to check out his podcast, you can see it in the comments. , His YouTube and Instagram is there. It's called, it's All There, which is Love the name. I think it's really cool. I'm gonna
Jesse Herford: subscribe right now.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah.
Josh Carnie: Thank you, Jesse.
Zanita Fletcher: Nah, thanks Josh. Again, we really appreciate having you on and it was good to chat and hear what you're up to.
Josh Carnie: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.