Record Live Podcast

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 And we're back with another episode of Record Live. Unfortunately, Zanita is not feeling 100 percent well today, so she won't be joining us. But I do have my good friend Dr. Daryl Dunn. Daryl, my words are getting tongue tied. That's the jet lag, Daryl. Um, I've just come back from a very long flight back from the UK.

I did actually meet Daryl in the UK in his home, I got to visit with you on Sabbath, Daryl, and that was really appreciated. Your wife's beautiful cooking there, and your delicious salad dressing, Daryl, I really enjoyed. But it's really great to have you on today. I know it's early in the UK where you're joining us from, and we really appreciate you joining us.

But today we're going to talk a little bit about AI. Artificial intelligence. Before we talk about AI, let's get to know you a little bit. So tell us just in a nutshell, who is Daryl Gungadu?

Hi. I am originally from the island of Mauritius. My parents have been missionaries since I was three years old.

So I've traveled, quite a bit, from Rodrigues Island to Madagascar to, many countries in East and West Africa. And, at 17, we moved, , to, southwest Michigan in the U. S. as my dad wanted to finish, , his degree in, theology. And, , so he did a, master's in theology, then a PhD in, missiology.

Mm-Hmm. And afterwards he went as a missionary to many islands ,, of the South Pacific. . . So he was in New Caledonia, then he moved to Fiji. He was a union president at that time, and then moved back to Melbourne, Australia where? Mm-Hmm. , where they retired. Meanwhile, I was also at Andrews University studying in electrical engineering and went as a student missionary to the island of Guam, same time zone as Sydney and Melbourne, but on the Northern Hemisphere, working for Adventist World Radio there.

I came back to Andrews and finished, my degree in electrical engineering and then went on, to work for Adventist World Radio in Italy. Then, then, , moved to the United Kingdom and, as, so worked for AWL for 22 years and, five years ago transitioned to Adventist Review where they created A new department within Adventist review called the media lab, the advanced review media lab.

And my task and my job description pretty much is to think about what new technologies might be coming up in, media, in the media world. And to already, , prepare the church for being present on these media platforms. So, as you know, early in the 1920s and 30s, the Adventist church was quite a pioneer on radio broadcast, with HMS Richard, , in the U.

S. With television, with Faith for Today and so on, we were one of the few first broadcasters that covered, the whole of the U. S. , but we were not really that, innovative when it came to online and the Internet. , and now there's a lot more new media platforms coming up, that we need to be, , Prepped for like augmented reality and virtual reality, and that tends to be or even gaming for that matter, and that tends to be my portfolio of creating content on being at the forefront of the technology in using this material and also engaging with other media entities throughout the church and getting them ready for these platforms.

I think it's great to know that the church is investigating, understanding, trying to grapple with this area, because it's an area that, as you say, we have always embraced the best way to communicate our special message to the world. And there are new and developing technologies. And we can be left behind if we're not careful, if we're not continuing to develop.

So that's really cool what you get to do. I think, artificial intelligence is in that realm. And I've seen that you've written, both in the messenger in the UK and also for Adventist review, you've written some stories about some of this.

Yes, and the september issue of the ministry magazine has a long article as well, obviously that gets mainly to pastors But I am co authoring a book actually for the bri.

That's the bible research institute within the church, on the use of new technologies and specifically The, , the A. I. Aspects down to four pastors for church, uh, workers, and that should be out early 2024. Great.

Well, let's let's just give ourselves a baseline of what is artificial intelligence?

Because I think that's important when we're talking about things, especially things that people aren't familiar with. What is artificial intelligence? What does it encompass? What is it doing? And let's start the conversation there.

Well, the definition actually has is a little bit fluid , it was not the case Back in the 50s when it started.

It was defined differently than it is today but the idea is to In a way, mimic this. Obviously, software. It's software that runs on regular computers. , that, gives a sense to the user that it's mimicking a human, , as far as its logic and as far as its thought process. Now, the earliest implementations of what a I might be would not be considered a I today.

So think of walking to an automatic door, that opens up. And when a person is present there, we would definitely not consider this. We would not put this in the realm of a I today, but it definitely would have been considered that many, many years ago, back in the seventies. Also, that would be considered AI today.

We're like, well, it's just an infrared detector of presence, and then it triggers a button and it opens up a door. So this is in a simplistic way, the robotic definition of what AI is. It is. , something that replaces a human without a human needing to be present for it to operate.

Right. So I guess in that example you've given, we would have to open the door ourselves once we invented the door.

And then you might have someone pressing a button to open the door if it's automatic. But in the sense of a

sensor,

we're replacing humans completely. There's no need for someone to do that. The door opens by itself.

So that is, the, the simplistic approach of looking at what AI might be. And, there are, if you want, four, ways of looking at that ecosystem , so we talked about the automation or the robotic aspect, right? So that is the doing Aspect of AI., and then we get into, the overall concept of what artificial intelligence is. And we get into machine learning and then deep learning.

And these are some of the new terms and new concepts that encompasses what this is all about. And we're moving from a doing. Which is the robotic and the automation to, , thinking, which is where the deep learning aspect of things, reside. And, from,, a usability perspective, you can think of, possibly some of the latest, use, that we've seen in the industry,, like,, chap GPT, for example.

So. Chat gpt definitely can scare people because it really feels like oh man It looks like there's a human behind it answering my questions or rephrasing my words or writing a Particular sentence that are written in shakspeare prose kind of thing, but it really is just Code, there's not much More to it than very advanced code that does use however an aspect of machine learning to Gather a whole bunch of information and kind of sort things through so chat gpt while being the most popular thing that has hit the latest in the industry and As it's in a way free, especially the older versions , it feels like it is quotes possessed, right?

But it is not and it is not the only tool out there that does things like this there's these are the most popular ones out in the industry right now. Mid journey and DALI are very popular on the photo generation aspects, right? We've used mid

journey ourselves at Rekord, , you may have even seen, some people may have even seen some covers that we've put together.

If we can't find the right stock image, That's right. mid

journey generates

Maybe not exactly, but almost exactly what we're looking for that doesn't exist anywhere else.

So it's based on just text prompts. You can basically write a string that says, I want an image of, based in the first century of a person fallen down from a horse with a bright light from heaven shining into his eyes kind of thing.

And he'll generate you an image that looks like possibly. Paul, on the road to Damascus, and that's very useful. That's one of those examples of being very useful. There's a whole lot of extra tools out there. Runway is one, one application that is pretty cool where you can film something. On your phone and then submit it to runway and it turns that video into a cartoonish version of it that is very much ai generated Synthesia is another application where you can write a script and it will have a person Presenting that script to you.

Or you can even engage in a conversation with a little avatar a little character cartoon or Human looking. But what's important to recognize is that these are just scratching the surface on, the A. I. Tools out there. I like to categorize them in those different aspects here. So since this year is very much a video application, Dolly, , And mid journey would be image generators.

We talked about chat, GPT, that's more in productivity and it sort of goes on in the line of the writing tools as well. But most people would've known Grammarly. Grammarly is a tool that, auto corrects your grammar. In a very intelligent way it understands the context of how you're writing things and does it that way There's ai tools for sales and marketing one example would be warmer.

ai There's another tool for automate automating your social media publications. , add creative dot AI is a good one that does that. A design assistant for designing a car or designing a building. Also, there's a lot of AI involved there. , viscom is a popular one. Content generation and, , search level automatic, Optimization for web design, like copymatic.

So there's quite a lot of content Of ai's out there that helps users And just to to show the plethora of applications out there, this shows about a 288 of them. Wow. All right. So,, that can be mind boggling, but it's, pretty much almost on a daily basis, there's some new AI tools that are coming up and, It's up to us to make it useful ,, for our, daily use.

Let's talk a little bit about that, Daryl, in terms of the daily use before we, before we decide to use AI or not. I guess that's one question. How do we understand the ethics of AI? Like is this just going to take everyone's jobs or is it? Is it, are there other ethical considerations?

Like, is it good? Is it evil? Because as Christians new things come out, new mediums, new entertainment, and we're always having that conversation. Is this good? Is this bad? What's the ramifications of this?

One quick analogy that I like to use is, the calculator, the simple calculator., is it good or is it bad? Well, it's neither good nor bad. It is how we use it. The calculator is very accurate,, it will give you exactly what you type, right?

, however, Maybe two generations ago at school, they did not have access to calculators. Therefore, they had to do all the mathematics longhand, long divisions and so on. And a lot of effort at schools were in making sure that humans knew how to calculate well longhand. When the calculator came along, that migrated from learning how to calculate to learning how to give the right equation to the calculator to calculate, yeah.

So the calculator is neither good nor bad. It is bad if we look at it only purely from the perspective of, does the person know how to do long, longhand equations or not? , or can they resolve this, complex mathematical equation on a piece of paper? In that case, it's bad. But for the purpose, for the larger picture, for the bigger picture of solving something to be able to use the time of the human in a more practical way, it then is good. , right.

Then the next analogy that I'd like to suggest is GPSs. your navigational system in your car. You can type a particular address and it'll take you there But if you don't verify if you don't have a clue that this is more or less the kind of direction I want to go to Then it can give you a complete different answer Simply because there's the same street name in sydney and in melbourne and in perth so if you know that you're going 15 minutes down the road and it is Let's say Harbor View Lane or something like that?

Well, there's a Harbor View lane in Melbourne and there's probably one, in Perth and so on. So if you type the wrong state, but the right name of the street, you might be in a different state altogether. And, so it's important to know how to use it as a tool and not trust. Your whole life to it.

Now sociologically and I do feel that, in many cases when new technologies come up like this, there are some people that are so excited about the technology that they will trust their whole life to it. And that is wrong. , it is important to, pretty much, make a decision as to, all right, this tool, I'm going to use it for this particular purpose.

, there is a good way of illustrating this, in that we've got a percentage of the population, about 16%, who are visionaries. They're typically innovators and early adopters. These guys, they will jump to using a technology before it is even mature. And there's a good aspect to this and there's a bad aspect.

Then you have on the other extreme of the spectrum there, the skeptics, uh, again, about 16 percent of them or the laggards and they will wait quite a long time. They'll need to be forced in a way to move into using the technology because there's no nothing else available. It's kind of like people who still like phones with buttons on them, you know, uh, cell phones with buttons on them.

Um, it needs to basically be. non existent, not, not viable before they will do the migration.

You can't have analog television anymore because they don't support it.

So with that perspective, , both extremes need some help. Naturally, the early adopters or the innovators are sometimes over glorified.

, but they do need to be there because they are the ones that figure out the kinks in the tool, , before it becomes used by the majority. So chat gpt as an example, we had version 4 of chat gpt. There was a lot of versions before that the typical majority did not know that existed. It was Not necessarily a low hanging fruit at that time You needed to be a bit of a hacker a bit of an innovator or early adopter To figure out that chat gpt exists and then you'd want to go and start playing with it And it was very clunky at that time and people were aware that it was buggy but they were Still people needed to use it for the bugs to be debugged out of it

. Mm-Hmm. . So, looking at that perspective, we recognize then that, if we use a tool and use it in a way that is outside of the scope of how it was designed, it will be perceived as wrongly used. Jared, you rode in my car, last weekend and, I happen to have,, a self driving Tesla. I've had it for eight years now and, I love it as a car, but the car drives itself.

, I do know, however, When not to turn on that feature,, if I'm driving against, with the sun right in my eyes, I recognize that the sun affects also the cameras, the 16 cameras that are on this car and blurs its vision as well. So I know that if the sun is too bright for my eyes, , the cameras are not even as good as my eyes and therefore I ought not to use the.

self driving feature. So it is a matter of recognizing when the tool is right for purpose and not Lately in the banking industry and that's been going on for At least 10 years now when you want to get yourself a loan or a mortgage of a house you will invariably speak to a human But they will go click click click click on their keyboard type a lot of information They'll ask you about your salary your age your propensity to dying or your health and so on i'm a bit melodramatic here, but It asks, they ask you all this information to dump it into a computer software and the computer software,, turns and then gives you a yay or nay, right?

,, the human is taken out of the equation of making those, calculations. And it ends up being, well, an AI tool deciding for you. And it feels very inhumane. Sometimes there might be some exceptions to a certain rule,, that, the code, the software has not taken into account. And by doing so, You feel marginalized in a way.

And that is my issue with over trusting AI. AI is very useful as long as it's used in its framework. It is,, it can be dangerous or. , sometimes even unethical if it's used outside of its scope . So by extrapolating on this, it is important to recognize then what is being fed to AI for it to learn.

We talked about machine learning briefly earlier, but it's obviously learning from a script somewhere. It's learning from It can be supervised or it can be an unsupervised learning. But these are technical jargon as far as what AI or how AI works. But the idea is that if you're feeding AI information that is partial, you're going to get a very similar response, a partial response.

One, exercise that I like to do with my students is, to get them to use chat GPT to figure out what day of the week is the right day for us Christians to worship. , so we , as Seventh day Adventists, naturally, we worship on the Sabbath day, based on the Ten Commandments and so on. But if you were to ask chat GPT, what day do Christians worship?

It'll invariably respond with... Sunday is a day of worship for Christians. But then if you say, Chad GPT, tell me what is the day, , that Christian worships based on the Bible. And he will still tell you Sunday is a day of worship, but you've got to formulate your question, your query, you know, very, very specific way by saying, by basing.

Only on biblical scripture and nothing else What is the day of worship that christians should worship and it will then tell you the sabbath day, which is a saturday so, You've got to know how to query That ai to get the right answer and it is it's a whole art in knowing how to use those text prompt based Ai tools

Right.

And so then, I guess, extrapolating that further, if society has particular values or things that are not necessarily Christian based, it will feed those back into everything it does, unless it's been given the source material that, you know.

Explain. Yeah, it's impartiality is very hard to reach. Basically, so if we were to ask, , Chad GPT or any of these, , general purpose, questions on, , how old is the earth?

, so it is partial obviously to an evolutionary, timeline rather than, , yeah, creation that would have happened about six years ago. Yes,

because , it's using what it's mostly finding, which is not majority. I guess I'm saying the majority is not always right. We don't

know exactly.

And just extrapolating it's finding sources and it's just saying, well, this must be the true

answer.

Let's just remember that AI is usually biased simply based on the person who's programmed it, or the group of people who have programmed it. So that's a good takeaway. Now the fact that it's biased does not mean that we ought not to use it. We just need to use it. Carefully. Every,

every source is biased.

Every person, every one of us has a bias. Yeah. So, that's important to recognize. Tell me, let's move to ministry a little bit because you're in that area. You're looking at using AI for the purpose of the church. How can we use AI, to further the work of the church, to benefit the world?

What are some good positive things that AI can do? Can you share a little bit about. What you're learning, what you're understanding, and maybe even some examples of how AI has been used in a positive way, for the

church. Absolutely. So, , there's many, , areas, and I'm going to focus, possibly on the most viewable aspect, which is the image generation aspect.

right? So mid journey is one that we talked about a little bit earlier. It would take a lot of effort for us to commission an artist to draw a particular, scenario in,, either in Bible times or whatever we want to illustrate. So, , for example, the,, the ministry magazine of this month of October, , depicts crucified with a Roman soldier looking up at Christ.

If the editors of the magazine, just got the idea of doing that, the time to commission an artist to generate an image like this would take a while. And it's just free on, on mid journey, right? So it's a very tempting platform to say, Hey, let's go ahead and use this platform to, to, to generate the image.

However, AI is not quite perfect at those drawings. So if you do look at the ministry magazines of this month, you'll notice that Christ has four fingers on one hand and eight fingers on the other hand. AI is still not quite perfect at doing fingers well, among other things. So if you ask it to hold to have a hand holding a fork You'll see the fork completely distorted and the hand also very unnatural.

So these Are telltales of ai being used in now does that mean that ai should not be used? Just because it's got those quirkinesses I think not it was a quick way for them to publish something. And same thing with a lot of our magazines but again back to the area of carefulness is that Because ai is so because we as humans are so quick as Using these tools it gets to a realm of trust and this is a sociological dynamic again That is important to understand in that people Have less trust in images nowadays because ai can generate so many things so quickly a lot of you might have a lot of our audience here might have seen a picture of the pope in a puffy white jacket Or a picture of Donald Trump being beaten up by police a few weeks ago.

All these images were generated by a I, were are not true and yet are circulating online. , so So some users can become more and more skeptic by saying how can I trust that this image is really true? how can I trust that this because The image the photography looks very realistic And it takes an expert to decipher.

That's not a photo. That is an ai generated image so If it is used as a contraband,, to try to suggest that there was this storyline happening when he was not, then for sure it is a wrong use of AI. Our church, however, can definitely use AI for illustrative purposes by. Having a disclaimer that this is an AI generated image.

So so having and an image of a selfie of , the children of israel crossing the jordan and them looking like they're doing a selfie. That's definitely We would definitely agree that well, there were no smartphones back then for them to do selfies or photography Equipment for that matter and it's obvious that it is computer generated so as it's important when we use a I for some of those aspects to understand that aspect a I personally helps me tremendously as I am quite dyslexic.

So I'm very bad at spelling and I have always been, , and I know my mom's watching here. So tools like Grammarly really help you. In, writing proper text and, writing it, with no spelling mistakes and for it to make sense, right? So that's one tool that I've been using for quite a long time, , to help me with my text.

There's another tool that I like to use is called Pie dot A. I. P. I. A. I. Where it does not write the script for you, but it helps you succinctly put together and an idea, right? And, so it, for example, you can say, okay, tomorrow, my next Sabbath, my sermon is going to be about righteousness by faith, and I need to present this to an audience of 12 to 18 years old.

And, I need to show, how the interpretation of it changed over the years. And, , so it will give you some suggestions as to, it won't write the script for you, but it will give you some suggestions as to, for that audience, this is the best way of presenting it to them. So I do use that tool quite a bit, for succinctly coming up with ideas.

So, is there anything, , the corporate church is working on or Adventist Review is working on that is sort of that you can share that is, exciting for you?

Yeah, in the world of AI, it might be a bit premature to announce anything grandiose because obviously there's a lot of tweaks with the software, but we are toying with the idea of, , basically dumping.

All of Ellen White's writing into, , an engine that can be queryable, right? But, at the same time, let's remember that, on the, on the Ellen White website, it's already queryable. You can search words, right?, so the concept of searching is not new. We've had this for a while.

And it's not AI driven. It is just searching words, like a reference to a dictionary. But the Concept of being able to search for ideologies rather than specific words. That is where I comes in. So, we're working on something around that line, but I can't say much more about it at this time.

Very cool.

So before we finish,, we like to take away a practical sort of application for ourselves when we have these conversations. A. I. Is something that's gonna, impact more of our lives. What's an attitude that we can take with us from this conversation or something we can learn to look at a I going forward?

How can we, interact with a I in a way that's positive that upholds our Christianity, but also is a benefit. To the world into others I guess that's where it would be a good place to leave today's conversation I'm sure there's more we could talk about, but yeah,

time. So, so a I for our church is a great tool in accelerating, deployment of content.

Okay. As a tool, not as an end in of itself. , So, optimizing your calendar or, , finding a way , that AI can generate a very quick website for your church, those are tools that we can definitely use and, and AI AI.

Replace your pastor. , I definitely don't think so. And I don't think that, 10, 15, 100 years from now, if Christ hasn't returned yet, we ought to even go that way. Having, AI as a virtual companion, it's a gray area, right?, the Japanese with the Tamagotchi's, way back 20 some years ago, tried that and it was entertaining for some people, but it does not replace human touch and human connection.

And probably my parting words would be as we get into a world where more and more of interaction will be AI based. So you want to go to your bank and do a transfer or transaction or open an account and you'll be speaking to a robot rather than a human. Obviously for them it makes economic, economical sense.

to deploy software rather than hiring people with all the human resources Implications let us as our church identify ourselves as with the term organic Non ai modified kind of thing our church is real human connections you If we were to replace, let's say, for example, our deacons or our greeters with a robot at the entrance of a church, and I've seen churches do that, by the way, it might be a novel idea, but our, us as humans are created.

By God to have human connections and let us never forget that and let us focus on offering that it will become a premium in the world in the next few decades to offer human touch or human connection. Yes, so let's let us maximize on that would be my suggestion.

Yeah. And I guess the, benefit if we can become more productive, more quickly using AI, we have more time to spend with each other.

We have more time, although the world keeps getting busier and busier and our lives keep speeding up. So that's something to take away. I think, as you've said, human connection is important. And can we slow down and connect with people in a real world sense?, human connection is still going to be important.

I think that's I think that's a great place to leave our conversation today. Thank you for, , introducing us to the world of AI, some of the possibilities that are out there.

I'm sure. For those interested in learning a little bit more or diving deeply into the ethics and,,, maybe the sociological dynamics of AI, a book that I'd recommend you or the audience would be,, The Robot Will See You Now.

And it is, artificial intelligence and the christian faith. So it's very much a christian perspective of how a I, , can forge forward. , it's a very well written book. And,, very relevant to today's society and how to shape our churches, at the grassroots level.

Perfect. And we just had a comment as well. Daryl, AI can be a very useful tool, especially for streamlining tasks that don't necessarily involve creativity in a creative scope. It's good for brainstorming. Doesn't match human creativity when it comes to tasks like writing or designing. We need to learn how to use AI because it's reshaping our work.

It's not necessarily coming for our jobs, but definitely for our job descriptions. So that's an interesting. Feedback,

so we've got to realize that ai will change how the job market will look like in the next a few years Just like cars changed , you know people who would take care of horses are much less employed now than car mechanics, so yeah Job migration will happen.

We need to recognize that we just need to be as humans nimble to be able to adapt to those areas. But possibly from a technological perspective, , we can categorize AI into Capabilities and function and with capabilities, there are three areas.

So the artificial narrow intelligence so this is you speaking to siri, or cortana or alexa those kinds of Applications. It does not store any memory it basically Activates based on a lookup table Then there's the artificial general intelligence. This is sort of where we're at. , we're just migrating to that now, so that requires a lot of cpu power a lot of computing power to do that and that will get to a level similar to what?

A regular human could interact, all the interaction would seem to be talking to a regular human on the other end. And then we get to artificial super intelligence where, it's an artificial consciousness that the machine would have. I still don't believe that we would even get to a point where, consciousness can be created by human.

This is really a realm of, but we can definitely emulate it, right? So that's the, that's where, often AI is portrayed as this solution to everything, but, when we actually , see the rubber on the road, or see its implementation. There's a lot of aspects that it still cannot do as well as humans as the comment that we just saw.

Then so that's from a capability perspective, then we can organize it from a functional perspective. So from a functional perspective, we see, reactive AI, which is very simple as to. If this, then it'll do that kind of like opening the door, for an automated door, um, system. Then we see the limited memory, uh, AI aspects.

So this is what is running my car. So it will drive on the road, but it's limited as what it can do. It's very specific. It's very good at what it does, and it can do it for years on end, but it's very limited. And then there's, the theory of mind, which,, comes to. The aspect where it almost has a personality and then the self awareness.

Those last two aspects, , I believe it will, it depends a lot on how we define what we would take as, yes, it is self aware. In a way, Grammarly is self aware, right? But, , As we use it often enough, we feel, okay, we understand that it's just code that is reading my text. It is not possessed or anything.

It is just code. So as we, , as we perceive it that way,, we can use it, as we said earlier. In the framework of what is designed to do humanists who obviously don't believe in the presence of a God or a creator or so, , have this, have this ideology that, , the earth is not sustainable anymore.

We need to start looking at other planets and we need to create, we need to create, immortality. In a way, so the concept of immortality that humanists are suggesting is that down the road and this is way outside of the AI scope here Is that we would be able to download our memories into a computer and therefore live?

Eternally as software in a computer Well, the bible tells us about a different concept of eternity, right? And, , does promise us eternal life in a very different way without a computer doing that with accepting Christ as our personal savior and,, and living with him in heaven, in a very organic form.

What I found is that going through, the story of creation and reading through the Bible, Satan has always presented a counterfeit to a lot of things. , in the garden of Eden, the counterfeits of the eternal life was already presented there., the counterfeit to what the definition of a family, is being prevalent in our society today.

The counterfeit of the Sabbath is also being presented, right, and has taken the majority now., so... AI or or computers can be used in a way as a counterfeit to eternal life From a humanist perspective, but it doesn't mean that computers are good or bad Uh how we use it is how um Is the proof of the pudding?

Yeah, wow. That's a really interesting, thing that I think we may have to explore another day, Daryl. , the concept that humans are looking to technology for salvation , in some senses, is what you're saying, rather than actually the God that created us and the relationship

we can have with him. So, , in the humanist terms, we talk about, the singularity moment, and it's predicted to be around 2045 possibly where we would be able to download our minds into a computer.

, yes, , that calls for another conversation altogether on that topic. I am more worried about that than I'm worried about AI. Tell you the truth and educating our members to know how to deal with a singularity moment. Wow.

Well, we've given some food for thought today.

Daryl, thank you for joining us. Really appreciate you getting up early, and sharing some of your expertise and some of your interest with us.

It was a pleasure doing this. The South Pacific Division is my home division, so I'll wake up at any time, to chat with you, Jared, and to the Record family.

Oh, thanks a lot, Daryl. All right, everybody, we will see you again next time on Record Live. 📍 Until then, God bless, stay safe, and we'll see you soon.