Record Live Podcast

Confessions of an unfaithful pastor
Jarrod Stackelroth: [00:00:00] Hi there, everyone. I'm Jared.
Zanita Fletcher: And I'm Zenita.
Jarrod Stackelroth: We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church, faith, and living well.
Zanita Fletcher: We believe as followers of Jesus, faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we put into practice.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Let's go live.
Zanita Fletcher: Hello everyone and welcome to another week of Record Live. We have with us today Pastor Daniel Mateo. Welcome to the show and welcome Jared as well.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's ZAnita. Great to be back.
Zanita Fletcher: Always good. We, have invited Daniel on with us today for two reasons. First of all, this month is Pastors Appreciation Month.
Zanita Fletcher: , he's a pastor from Victoria and so we've just invited him on just to hear his perspectives. , He's written an awesome article for us in the record called the confession of an [00:01:00] unfaithful pastor. And it's just, I thought it was a really good read. Yeah. This is the issue. It was a really good read and just a really interesting insight into like, I've never been a pastor myself, so I cannot relate as you have.
Zanita Fletcher: And so I just really, , enjoyed reading it. Yeah, hearing your honest perspective and your experience on that. So thank you for being so vulnerable in that as well. But before we get into, I guess the topic of the article, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, where you pastor and maybe how you got into ministry in the first place?
Daniel Matteo: Oh, yeah. Thanks for asking Zenita. Yeah. It's, great to be here and be part of it. Yeah, so, , Daniel and I'm married with two. So my wife Katie is a teacher and I've got two kids. Grace is 17 and Sam's just about to turn 13. And,, we live in, , northeast of Melbourne. So I pastor at Healesville church and also I'm associate pastor at Wantirna 7th Adventist church as well.
Daniel Matteo: And, we've been here in Victoria for about two years. , I got into ministry ministry, I would say is the articulation of a, of a calling that is a deep sense [00:02:00] that I've had since I was. a baby, I think. ,, but, , that's how I articulate it now. It was a sort of a deep connection and conviction from that point.
Daniel Matteo: But, I have a mortal fear of all public speaking. So I ran the opposite direction when I was a teenager. And my pastor was saying to me, you should get into ministry. I went, no, not doing that. What's as far away as I can possibly get from that. And, I joined the army as an infantry soldier. So I did that for five years.
, , during which time I was sort of,, away from God. So forth, but, , on the way back in, I, I met my wife and, yeah, God proved to make me that he was there and that he cared. And so I submitted to him and yeah, my wife and I got married, had our kids, and I had to move back into ministry.
Daniel Matteo: I did a couple of years in the security industry, but then ultimately went to Avondale and yeah, I spent about five years in far North Queensland and then I was five years. I'm looking after youth ministry in Tasmania, and then this is my second year here in Vic.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's, , a real sort of Jonah experience, Daniel, going in [00:03:00] completely the opposite direction. How far away can I get? And then God pulled you back. That's really interesting.
Daniel Matteo: Line of thought was always, I'd rather be shot than give a sermon because I'm so afraid of public speaking.
Daniel Matteo: So I'll do that.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Wow. That's crazy. Before we get too much further, , we've got to address the , title of this article, confessions of an unfaithful pastor. Now it's a little bit, eye catching. And I think that's on purpose because we want people to, really engage with the important topics that you're talking about, but let's just clarify in your sense, what is that definition of an unfaithful pastor?
Jarrod Stackelroth: How are you using that term? Cause some people might make certain assumptions. ,, let's address those before we go any further.
Daniel Matteo: Yeah, sure. So in Bible prophecy throughout the Old Testament prophets and in Revelation as well, , God's church is compared to a woman who he marries. And my assertion is that I've been called to ministry.
Daniel Matteo: [00:04:00] But I've not been called to be the husbandman. I've not been called to be Jesus. I've not been called to be married to the church. I've been called to be a shepherd and that's a different thing. And so when I turn away from my family, when I turn away from, , the family, then the wife and the children that God's given to me, and I'd step focus the energy, the emotional energy, the time that I'm supposed to be giving to them on God's bride on the church that I'm actually being unfaithful.
Daniel Matteo: So that was my. I guess a little bait on the hook to get you to read the article, if that makes sense.
Zanita Fletcher: I'm not going to lie, I was one of those readers who, I started reading and I was like, wow, this guy is really honest. It's like, I'm very interested to see where this goes. , but I guess like I'm, we obviously are talking to passers here, but we also talking just to anyone who listens to this podcast, really, and it could be coming from all different walks.
Zanita Fletcher: of life. And I guess I was interested in this. You wrote in your article, I love to serve the church. However, God never called me to replace him. And, I think that's interesting because I [00:05:00] think a lot of people can probably relate to that idea of not knowing. What God is leading to do, leading you to do and what he isn't leading you to do.
Zanita Fletcher: Like, it's kind of a fine line of, how do we know what he actually is calling us to do? , and so I guess I'd be interested just to know, , how you navigate that. , I know that boundaries is something that you're really interested in, but , how do you know what is yours and what isn't yours?
Zanita Fletcher: , do you have any parameters around that? Or is it just something you pray about and get a sensing for, or what do you do?
Daniel Matteo: Yeah, well, I don't pretend to have all of that together. I've identified it as a problem and something that needs attention from me and something that I need to work out.
Daniel Matteo: But it doesn't mean I always have the answers. 100 percent is to figure out how I go one way, how I go the other. All of us, , particularly those are in full time ministry, but people that are serving in their church, their local churches, volunteers and so forth as well. We've got different areas of ministry.
Daniel Matteo: We've got this area that I really, these things that I really enjoy doing and that I want to do. And then we've got these things over here that I really don't want to do and I don't enjoy doing, [00:06:00] and somewhere where in the overlap of both of those is what God's called me to do. And often, I end up doing a lot of these sorts of things out of, obligation, guilt, shame.
Daniel Matteo: There's all sorts of reasons, or just for, because I have to. No one likes paperwork, for example. And that comes with a lot of jobs. , but you know, there's all sorts of reasons why I have to do this. And I want to spend all of my time over here. But if I spend all my time over here and I'm not doing anything over here, then I'm not being faithful either.
Daniel Matteo: So how do I figure out where's the sweet spot? And it's not always about being comfortable. It's not always about doing what I want to do, but it is about being sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading. And There's a balance also because, if God calls you to do a particular role, he's also calling you to do the administrative tasks that maybe aren't so fun that are associated with that role.
Daniel Matteo: When I'm, when the majority of my time is spent doing things that are outside of my primary calling, I have to ask the question as to whether or not I'm really being faithful to God. And as you said,, when you're [00:07:00] praying, You're asking God, what is it that you're calling me to do when you've got that intimate connection with that God, with God and intimate relationship with God, when you're being responsive to his movement, primarily in your personal intimacy with him, you'll be more sensitive to what those tasks are and have to reorder your priorities based around that.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's interesting what you've just shared with us, because I often hear the concept that if you are working and living out Passion. You won't work a day in your life. You won't burn out because you're doing what exactly is your sweet spot. And often it's the things that you want to do rather than the tasks that you don't want to do.
Jarrod Stackelroth: That's that's the end that burns you out. How would you respond to that? Because I've heard that from a lot of people. I don't know if you've heard that. That's sort of
Daniel Matteo: Yeah, for sure. I mean, we all want to get paid to do what we love, but the fact is that ministry is very different to any other tasks that we have to do and that it isn't just a horizontal experience between [00:08:00] one human being and another.
Daniel Matteo: It's vertical and horizontal. And it's also a warfare, like there's a spiritual dimension, spiritual combat dimension, which means that it's utterly exhausting. And even though you love it, even though you might be in love with it, with a particular task. If you are not plugged into the source of power, if you're not taking adequate rest and stewardship and, , prioritizing , your time properly, then a workaholic will destroy themselves.
Daniel Matteo: And , that has happened to me. , I've experienced some form of mental health event four times in my 12 years of ministry, whether it be burnout, whether it be, you know, sort of depression, whatever those, you know, Yeah, I average about once every three years, I kind of spear in and that's not good.
Daniel Matteo: And it's not what God intended for me. It's because, there's some, it's because something went wrong. The first time it ever happened to me was, , what actually was the inspiration. I was around about the time I first wrote this article, which was about eight years, eight or nine years ago. And, , anyway, I was just trying to prove to my conference because they'd [00:09:00] sponsored me while I was, , studying.
Daniel Matteo: So I was trying to prove to them that I was worthy. And I was trying to prove to my church members that I was a good pastor because I needed them to think that about me for me to feel okay about myself. I was trying to prove to God , that I was worthy of his call. And I was just going, going, going, going, going, , and, , yeah, it wasn't taking any time off and I would, , I'd be totally available, totally emotionally available to everyone except my family.
Daniel Matteo: I'd get home at the end of the day, like a too long day. And I'd just be like a zombie, just eating, staring into space just because I was just so emotionally exhausted. And so I was there for everyone except them for that period of time. And I actually, yeah, I got to the end of my third year of ministry and I thought, I can't do this anymore.
Daniel Matteo: I was. I was right before my Christmas leave, right before. I was just about to go on Christmas leave. I had one week left. I was up to Wednesday. I had, I did work on my sermon. I finished my Wednesday. I think at about six or seven Bible studies on the Wednesday. I had to do my sermon [00:10:00] between Thursday and Friday.
Daniel Matteo: I had to preach on Sabbath and then I was on leave and I got home on Wednesday night and I, and I just. My wife asked me to dry the dishes while she cooked and I just burst into tears. I hadn't cried since I was about eight and I just was crying and she, and I wasn't even sad. There wasn't even like anything necessarily that had happened.
Daniel Matteo: And my wife was freaking out cause she's never seen me cry. And I said, no, no, I'm fine. And then the next, I thought I just got to get through this sermon and then I'm done. And the next day somebody came around and they wanted to talk to me. About all of their problems. So they rang me up, they wanted to come around and tell me about all their problems.
Daniel Matteo: And I said, and I was just freaking out and I started to cry again when I got off the phone with them and I knew they were coming and I said, I will pay you 100 to just leave me alone. And that, well, actually, no, this wasn't quite like that. , it wasn't quite like that. Their problem was financial.
Daniel Matteo: They're having , some money problems, you know, and, , And, , yeah, no, I didn't say it like that. I said, look, I'll give you this a hundred dollars. And, , and I just, [00:11:00] I can't see you today essentially. And they were happy with that. That actually made them happy. They're like, yep, I'll take that. And I'll go.
Daniel Matteo: But as soon as I left, I was just done. I couldn't, I was crying. I rang my wife. She was freaking out anyway. , yeah, I just fell apart. Yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, I think this is something that I've heard a number of pastors just in my own circles, open up about is this struggle with the load that is on you as a pastor and all of the responsibilities and all of the expectations that people have on you to tick all of these boxes.
Zanita Fletcher: That is quite unrealistic. We did a series on this talking to a few pastors, , I think it was last year , and a lot of them kind of spoke about this weight that they feel. And I kind of picked up in your article as well that you had this pressure to be. Like you mentioned, like the church's savior, like to do all of the things, like be that God.
Zanita Fletcher: , and , you mentioned obviously that this was like an inner thing, but as members, I know we are talking about like pastors appreciation day. So as members, do you think there are things that we can do to help like our pastors with that? Or do you think it's up to the pastor to [00:12:00] recognize, , what their thoughts are or what their struggles are or their personal issues are and work from it that way?
Daniel Matteo: Well, there's two things. The A congregation has expectations, and , those expectations often, if you were to talk to every member of a congregation and ask them about their expectations of their pastor, they would all be different. And they would all, if you added them all up and put them together, they would be like, just completely unachievable for one human being.
Daniel Matteo: But, every time that's expressed, Oh, you know, the pastor should be doing this, or, why didn't you do that, or whatever, rather than going, no, inside of myself, rather than going, okay, I was not, I didn't do that because I didn't physically have enough time. It's not because I'm incompetent or uncalled or unfaithful.
Daniel Matteo: It's because I didn't physically have enough time and I, and God called me to be here and do this at that time. And as a result that wasn't done or my gift set isn't in that area or whatever. When you've got personal value, [00:13:00] Priorities, right? Where you know who you are in God and who you're called to be,, you can recognize that for what it is.
Daniel Matteo: But when you don't, you take on board all of that, that it all feeds into your insecurity. So you're like, yeah, yeah. You know, I just should have, should have been there. I just dropped the ball. And then, and then you try and make up for that by, but it's a bottomless pit. You can't fill it. You've, you're only called to do it.
Daniel Matteo: So, so in answer to your question, it's from both directions. , it's from both directions. So it's from the pastor's got to recognize who he is or she is and understand that, you know, that there's a calling that they've got, they're trying to fulfill. And that is, that's, that primarily comes from God, who God's called them to be.
Daniel Matteo: And secondly, congregations have got to understand that ministers aren't supermen. And women, it's that they're just not capable of being everywhere at once, doing everything that's expected of them necessarily. , I think it's, it's important for them to have realistic expectations, but, at times those expectations won't be met and that's just the way it is.
Daniel Matteo: It's the easiest thing in the whole world to judge a leader. It's another thing [00:14:00] entirely to lead well, that is a difficult thing to do. It's easy to sit back and be an armchair general. It's very difficult to be on the spot. Very difficult.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Just before I ask my question, we've got a comment from our audience. Carol from PNG. Thank you for speaking on this. Many pastors won't have the courage to speak about this. The church needs to have counseling and support services for its workers. Face the reality that we are also humans and have challenges too.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I do know the church is getting better in this area. services to workers. I guess it depends on the country and context that you're serving in. , but there definitely are some services available there. , just reflecting on what you were saying just now as well, though, on the expectations, the external expectations.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I find for myself, sometimes a big problem I have is with this fear of inadequacy or, or the internal expectations that I think other people are setting on me. Can you talk a [00:15:00] little bit about your own internal, perhaps as a pastor or just as a person, what that looks like that interplay between the standards you set for yourself that you're trying to achieve You're trying to do things for God.
Jarrod Stackelroth: You're trying to, influence people to come into the kingdom to get to know Jesus. You're doing it for good reasons., But how do you, , discern between those internal motivations? Am I just doing this because of the expectations for the guilt and the shame and the whatnot? Is it something in myself that I'm trying to overcome?
Jarrod Stackelroth: Or is it actually, An important thing that I need to prioritize. Can you tell us how you navigate that or how you're learning to navigate that?
Daniel Matteo: , you know, there's a lot to be said for things like counseling and reading books and so forth. But I still believe, I still believe, and I don't think I'm naive about it. I think it's true that, people that are called into ministry, , there's an element of, of the prophetic at work.[00:16:00]
Daniel Matteo: God is speaking to that person through his word. Through various ways and means, impressions on their heart, through sermons they listen to on YouTube or whatever, God is communicating with them. He is trying to get their attention. He's speaking to them and he has come that they might have life and that more abundant.
Daniel Matteo: And so in that personal prayer life, that personal spirituality, that personal intimacy, when you're honestly coming before God and looking at, well, why do I feel this way about this? And where did that come from? When did I first feel this way? And why? And was it, is that based on truth? Or is it based on a lie that I've believed about myself, about others, about my place in the world?
Daniel Matteo: , God does speak to us. He does heal us in those moments of personal intimacy. The problem is that because they are painful moments, , the majority of our life is devoted to running away from those moments. Like we, we invest The majority of our time trying to avoid that quiet moment in intimacy with God, and that [00:17:00] happens in ministry, , because we can justify the fact that we are, well, I preach the Bible every week, and I'm praying with people in my home multiple times a day.
Daniel Matteo: What do you mean I don't have a relationship with God? And yet, When was the last time I really heard his voice? I think that God is speaking to people and through people that are in positions of leadership because his church is his church and he's speaking through it. , and we ought to be more responsive to that.
Daniel Matteo: And that includes making time for that, making time to hear his voice. And when you're in the silence. When you're reading his word, he's going to bring conviction. He's going to speak and you're going to be able to identify, okay, no, he has not called me to this. It's not just that I want to do it. I don't want to do it.
Daniel Matteo: It's I'm doing a bunch of stuff. That's not his will right now. I'm doing a bunch of stuff. That's not his will. And you know what things that are doing things that aren't his will is called that's called sin. Even when it's church stuff, cause it's not good stewardship.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah. You mentioned just before, like you started asking [00:18:00] yourself these questions, like, why am I doing that?
Zanita Fletcher: What's the thought behind that? Which I feel like is,, quite mature, but I feel like not everyone has that ability to like, like they don't just naturally question those thoughts. They just kind of believe them and they live them sort of thing. And I think that's an interesting part of your journey is , obviously you were talking about, you were prioritizing ministry over your family and you said that you were.
Zanita Fletcher: Kind of doing these things out of , self esteem issues or value things or expectations. , but what was like the, at what point did you start asking yourself those questions? Cause I imagine you weren't always asking them cause then you wouldn't have been in that predicament., can you , tell us a bit about that journey from , you were obviously living this way for a certain period of time and then you.
Zanita Fletcher: Had a transformation and you've come to realizations, but , what was that,, journey for you?
Daniel Matteo: Yeah. Well, so, so this is, I told you guys that I've had a mental health event for four times in 12 years. So my, my most recent one was very recent, but essentially what happened is every time [00:19:00] I burnt out or got sick, , my capacity, my actually work, my actual working capacity dropped significantly , and then came back a bit, but then leveled out and I was never able to work at the same capacity I was before.
Daniel Matteo: So it sort of went a lot and then I dropped. And then it was a permanent drop and that happened three times. Now, , the most recent time when it happened, it was, yeah, it was a very big drop. And, , yeah, it was, yes, being, yeah, it's good to have good Christian friends around you, you know, it's good to , have people around you who, , are willing to speak.
Daniel Matteo: Um, to you, even when you're not doing very well, because sometimes nice friends will just tell you nice things when you're in a bad situation and they will just say, poor you and it's all the other person's fault. And, , , you haven't done anything wrong or whatever, but good friends, loving friends will say, no, okay, that wasn't right.
Daniel Matteo: But. You aren't handling it in an appropriate way in this area, this area, this area, and this area. So, you know, I've got a wonderful wife, I've got [00:20:00] wonderful friends. I've had a really, really amazing, , Ministerial Secretary for the last couple of years,, and Pastor Justin Bone, and, , , and , the conference availed me with, they were talking, there was a comment about counselling before the, The conference availed me of some, of some counselling also, which was very helpful.
Daniel Matteo: I was called out. I was called out. Someone had a crack at me. So that's the, that's what happened. That's what I needed.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Yeah. There's this concept I think, , that Christians are sometimes uncomfortable with. It's the idea, I think, , one writer, , called it the dark night of the soul., someone else called it, , like a wall.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And sometimes when you hit that rock bottom place, , you can either stay there and languish there or, , ignore all the growth stuff and, or you can go through it ,, and somehow, , God can use that to, to grow you, to, to strengthen you, to teach you [00:21:00] lessons,. Has that been your experience that going through some of these challenges where it does make you hit rock bottom, it does make you reassess, but then, , If you don't avoid it, it'll keep happening perhaps worse or, you know, what, what's the, what's the takeaway it's, I don't want to glorify suffering, but sometimes suffering is,, necessary to grow and mature us as Christians. , what's the place of that, those sort of seasons of difficulty in your life and how that., come through for you.
Daniel Matteo: ,, it's funny to watch other people in another situation and think, okay, well, that's never going to happen to me. And then when it does and then you get out of it and go, okay, that's never happening again.
Daniel Matteo: But the funny thing is I can see in my life at the moment slide., back towards old habits and so forth. So it's just, you know, it's about being reminded and reminding oneself that there is a, there's a process of, um, functionality boundaries, personal spirituality, , active self care,, and, , and particularly [00:22:00] stewardship of one's family, , marriage.
Daniel Matteo: So forth that are important to being effective in the long term, but, , it's really interesting because, , I'm just coming to the end of a, of a masters. And, , when I was in my first year, I was listening to a subject on, , well, we were, it was during, it was COVID year. So I was online listening to,, some lectures on personal spirituality and I actually was getting really angry.
Daniel Matteo: You know, I was going, man, It's boring, like basic stuff. Like I'm a pastor for how many years and they want to teach us at master's level about how to have a personal relationship with God. Like, come on, you know, what a waste of time. And, you know, check the boxes and got the assignments in, but I thought, wow, , get that out of the way and get onto the real meat is really how I thought about it.
Daniel Matteo: And,, but the funny thing is, Man, the last couple of years have been about rediscovering the power of all of that. And really like,
Daniel Matteo: just very, not too long ago, I was sitting through some professional development with the same person and they were saying [00:23:00] all the same stuff that they said in those lectures. And I was like, this is gold. This is cure to cancer stuff. This is amazing. Why didn't I notice this for what it was when I first heard it?
Daniel Matteo: It's because I wasn't in the right headspace, but I was looking around and, , and there was a good number of., my colleagues around me and I thought they're thinking the same thing as I was thinking back then. They're going through the same thing as I was going through back then. They're going, what do we, what do we need this for?
Daniel Matteo: We're pastors. We don't need to be told how to have a personal relationship with God. It's important. You,, you slide your slide. You've got to be reminded. Yeah.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah. I'm sure we've all had those experiences where we've read a book and it hasn't resonated. And then five years later, it's been the best thing ever or something like that.
Zanita Fletcher: But I know we're kind of,, firing questions at you about your article, but I just kind of want to give you an opportunity to share if there's anything that you That you want to speak on specifically,, whether it's like a practice or a recess or like just advice you've received, that's been helpful for you in terms of like [00:24:00] just an individual or as a part as a pastor.
Daniel Matteo: Yeah., That's the, I have been a proclaimer of the gospel of Jesus Christ, very, very passionate proclaimer of the gospel of Jesus Christ from the moment I began to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. I've wanted other people to understand it. But it has been very, very difficult for me to believe that it's true for me.
Daniel Matteo: And I'm not the only one, , Mother, Mother Teresa of Kolkata, who everyone thinks of as being a really, really godly woman, and she was. If you ever, you talked about Dark Night of the Soul before, Jared, if you ever Google Mother Teresa Dark Night of the Soul, she was thinking some pretty horrible stuff about herself.
Daniel Matteo: She would say things to her confessor by correspondence. You know, she was a Catholic, she had a, she would do confession. And she would, by correspondence, say things to her confessor like, Jesus loves you, but not me. And,, I don't think that she's alone in terms of Christian ministry in that area. The gospel is, is for everyone else, but it's, but God loves me based on what I do [00:25:00] and how effective I am.
Daniel Matteo: And when I'm in ministers meetings, when I'm in professional development and everyone's sharing all of these stories about these wonderful things they're doing for God, and I'm not doing anything like that, then that means that I'm not valuable. That means that's got to do with my calling. And, that maybe.
Daniel Matteo: Maybe I'm just nothing. Maybe I'm not worth anything to him. And, It's just not, it's not the gospel. It's not true. And I don't know why it's easy to share the gospel, but not easy to believe it. But that's just the fact it's the fact of it. And so I would really encourage you to continue to encourage your pastors with the same messages that they give to you, because it's hard for them to believe that they're valuable.
Daniel Matteo: It's hard for them to talk about their own achievements in terms of what they think that they're doing for God in a positive way and why they're doing it. They're someone that is contributing to God's mission and a part of it.
Jarrod Stackelroth: That's some [00:26:00] really profound things to think about there, Daniel. , I think, yeah, as you're speaking, I can definitely relate and see that in my own experience, that, that sort of, you believe it, At a level, can you give yourself the same grace that you preach to give to extend others or the same forgiveness you extend to others or that you talk about?
Jarrod Stackelroth: Yeah, it's a really challenging thing for us as Christians. Hey, just as we wrap up, we often end on a practical note for our, our viewers, our listeners. What can we do this week, that can, Take, I guess, a nutshell of this conversation. , it's been a huge conversation and thanks for your vulnerability and some of the stuff you've shared.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I think it will help,, a lot of people. , but what can we do? And I think there were some themes that were coming through, but just this opportunity for you to give us in a nutshell, what can we do this week that will help us in our own spiritual journey and perhaps help our pastors as [00:27:00] well.
Daniel Matteo: , I think it's helpful every now and again to just pause like I was talking about intimacy with God before and the way that God speaks in in those moments. And when you pause and you come to God with three questions, where am I at in terms of my family? Where am I at in terms of the things that you want me to do, Lord?
Daniel Matteo: And where am I at with you? You know, we got to ask those, just ask him those questions. And you know what? Ask your family those questions because you might get different answers than what you think.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, it's a bold move, but it's a wise move for sure. I think actually the Bible verse of the day was all about that concept of being honest with your friends and family. , what a true friend is. Well, Daniel, it's been awesome to have you on and thank you again so much for your article., I really encourage everyone to Check it out.
Zanita Fletcher: It is on record live website at the moment. So you can read it there or check it out in your magazine at church, but yeah, just really appreciate your vulnerability and your honesty., and hopefully we'll have you on again soon.
Daniel Matteo: It's been a pleasure.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Thanks, Daniel.
Hey, just [00:28:00] before we let you go, I'd love to encourage you to give us a review on the podcast app that you listened to us on. Especially if you've been listening for a while. , Subscribe to our podcast. It really helps to have our podcast discoverable by others. And when they're looking for a good podcast to listen to about faith in hope and life. Maybe they'll see your review and it will help them decide to have a listen.
So thanks so much for listening once again, and we'll see you next week.